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Thread: LW2018 documentation

  1. #16
    Male Modeler ccclarke's Avatar
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    If you have no development team, the labor costs associated with upgrading the software is . . .

    ZERO.

    That's all the algorithms one needs for LW software labor.

    Or you can formulate a new one:

    Take the remaining days left in 2020 and add the number of days in 2021 until LW 2021 comes out.

    I would be very surprised if the result doesn't equal the one above.

  2. #17
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shabazzy View Post
    sigh.... Dude, it's these types of comments that help kill the LW community...
    We could probably all take the foot off the accelerator pedal with a discussion topic heading downhill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shabazzy View Post
    ...Ben Vost created a PDF of LW 2020 but not any earlier versions...
    The reason why there's only a prepared LW 2020 PDF is specifically because of the points Sensei mentioned. See the postscript: https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...=1#post1602030

    However, as recognized, there is now a PDF export option from the 2018 docs and it appears to work...albeit very inefficiently. I just asked the server to prepare the PDF for 20 minutes and now it is serving a 520 MB PDF file. NewTek/Vizrt should really store this permanently so the server does not get overwhelmed.

    Maybe this link will work for a while until the temporary cache is cleared...

    https://docs.lightwave3d.com/plugins...202_182456.pdf
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive.
    Active LW Development in 2020: DB&W | Deep FX | DPont | LWCAD | TrueArt | ...

  3. #18
    I've been using LW since the Amiga. Participated in CORE and I *usually* upgrade for every new release. My most recent upgrade was for LW 2019 - but I still primarily use LW 2015.

    Haven't pulled the trigger yet on 2020. I will IF I see official announcement(s) from 'Viz/Newtek that includes:

    - They will re-start and sustain adequate resources for LW development
    - That LW 2020 will get at least two more substantial bugfix releases (I don't care if they are released in 2021).
    - Some sort of statement from 'Viz/Newtek that they are committed to LW as an important product and plan to nurture it for years to come.

    Otherwise: I'm not throwing my money at them. This may sound harsh, but that's life. If the LW party is over, then Viz/Newtek should quit dragging their feet and just say so & move on.

    I get that the pandemic & economic weirdness has thrown a wrench in things. So I'm willing to be patient. I've seen big gaps between LW releases before.

    I've also seen companies abandon great GFX apps before. Thank god LW doesn't rely on license servers!
    Last edited by eokeisler; 12-02-2020 at 01:52 PM.

  4. #19
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Some people are "customers", some are "ex-customers", and some are LightWavers...
    Do you count yourself as a "Lightwaver", then? You make it sound as if you are part of a cult. As if only "true believers" deserve to be called "Lightwavers".

    Lightwave is just software. Software is not a religion or a belief. And software users leave when they feel they had enough and trust is lost in the software and/or the company behind the software.

    This might be due to pricing; to a lack of updates that deliver hardly any benefits; to a complete collapse in communication from the side of the company; to the realization that alternatives in the market provide better value and better features; to the realization that other apps are developed in a direction they feel addresses their needs more; to the feeling that their voices remain unheard; to the core software aging and no core updates are forthcoming; to changes that from one version to the next broke compatibility with old scenes; to chaotic management decisions and changes; to stupid marketing goof-ups; to a distinct lack of marketing; to misunderstanding the importance of social media; to disgruntled ex-users venting their frustration to other users; to an open source alternative providing the same or more for free; to changes in the industry; to a lack of internal roadmaps; to a lack of vision and imagination in the company.

    All of this happened, and more, in Lightwave's case. Once you lose the trust of your customers, it is GAME OVER. It is very hard to regain that trust.

    For many of the above reasons I switched when I did, and these are some of the reasons why I am sure of that less and less users decided against upgrading.

    Math is just math. Only a small part of the total. Math is but a human invented abstraction to hope to understand the complexity of the world around us. An algorithm that excludes essential parameters, while still logically true, does not describe/abstract reality to an acceptable level of understanding. Yours is lacking many parameters.
    Last edited by Rayek; 12-02-2020 at 01:24 PM.
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  5. #20
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eokeisler View Post
    ...
    - That LW 2020 will get at least two substantial bugfix releases (I don't care if they are released in 2021)...
    There have been two bux fix releases so far with a possible third one recently leaked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ged_Bl6PFjA
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive.
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  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    There have been two bux fix releases so far with a possible third one recently leaked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ged_Bl6PFjA
    Thanks. I updated my post to say "That LW 2020 will get at least two more substantial bugfix releases"...

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    The notion that customers are somehow "obligated and responsible" just by a product purchase to continue giving that company money for upgrades, etc. lacks any moral, ethical or legal basis. Purchase of a product in no way attaches any such obligation to customers.
    Rethink your statement, in the face of fact that many modern IT companies sell you not the product, but e.g. one year subscriptions...

    You purchase subscription, make projects in the app, then after months or years, subscription is over.
    You're unable to load and modify your own projects anymore.
    So, you're forced by company to buy the next year subscription, or permanently shutdown from access of your own projects..


    Game industry more and more goes the same way. Instead of sell product once, they give core product for free, and then sell items/additions inside of the game.
    And you often cant have item and do whatever you like with it (officially forbidden resale of items).
    If they will have enough powerful lobbyist they could even make it crime to resell game item in the real world...
    If game has subscription lack of payment for the next subscription period, will result in the lost of the all previously purchased/gathered items..


    If there is bug in previous version of software, and new one version has bugfix for it, customer is even more forced to pay for upgrade or buy the next subscription..
    But when a few bugs are squashed in some app, a few new bugs are introduced, year by year.
    Introduction of bugs (or acceptance of introducing them) is a method to force customers to buy upgrades.
    (e.g. "we know there is some bug (because e.g. app crashes at exit at random moment), but product must be released prior deadline.")
    Especially true when product is on-line delivered.
    Don't you think so that when products were only off-line delivered on tapes/CD/ROM (built-in OS), they had less bugs?
    They were better, more intensively tested, prior introduction to the market, because there was no second chance..
    Now you have auto-updating apps, so bug will be found and fixed day by day, after release. Customers are alpha- and beta-testers of the app.

  8. #23
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    eokeisler, wouldn't you prefer that they fix all the bugs in one release, rather than two?
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive.
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  9. #24
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    People/customers/LightWavers sent two incompatible messages to the management and developers
    So what? Businesses ALWAYS get conflicting requests from different bodies of customers. It's their responsibility to figure out the right things to add which satisfy the largest possible body of customers -- stuff like marketing research, etc. help them do so. Newtek's poor management and planning for LW is NOT the LW customers' responsibilities in any way, shape or form.

    Customers (as so many here pointed, out over and over) had and have NO control over what Newtek did or does, Newtek could (and DID) whatever Newtek wanted w.r.t. LW. When what Newtek delivered in LW didn't fit with customers' needs/wants, those customers went elsewhere as is absolutely and unequivocally their right.
    Last edited by jwiede; 12-02-2020 at 02:39 PM.
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  10. #25
    "eokeisler, wouldn't you prefer that they fix all the bugs in one release, rather than two?"

    I'm being realistic.

    Clearly, Viz's acquisition of Newtek impacted 2020's development.

    Still too many bugs/issues & not reliable enough for me - yet. Releases seemed rushed to me. And, seriously, I don't expect whatever LW devs Viz could pull together will be able to mash all/most 2020 bugs in one bugfix release. Maybe they could pull it off IF they pulled most of the previous LW devs back in - but it seems that's no longer possible. So. I'm sticking with 2015, spending some time with 2019 and hoping Viz doesn't permanently abandon future LW development.
    Last edited by eokeisler; 12-02-2020 at 02:42 PM.

  11. #26
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Rethink your statement, in the face of fact that many modern IT companies sell you not the product, but e.g. one year subscriptions...
    Irrelevant red herring. Nothing stated has anything to do with Lightwave or the relationship between Newtek and Lightwave customers, the topic of discussion.
    Last edited by jwiede; 12-02-2020 at 02:44 PM.
    John W.
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  12. #27
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    It is self-fulfilling destruction. If company has not enough money from upgrades/sales, has to fire employers, the remaining people will do less work, it will be less attractive for the customers, so the more people won't upgrade, and there will be needed to cut costs again the next year.. Repeat cycle year by year.
    And yet, well-managed companies commonly turn around products going through market and revenue slumps, so clearly the outcome you're describing is not the only outcome possible nor even necessarily the most likely. Further, the assertion that the only answer to reduced revenue is terminating employees is highly inaccurate, as is the assertion that terminating employees reliably results in a product less attractive to customers.

    What you're claiming is neither microeconomic fact nor unalterable mathematic principle, it is just your opinion.
    Last edited by jwiede; 12-02-2020 at 03:22 PM.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    ...
    ...If current "investors" want to quit, just shut up on the forum, find other forum of your favorite 3D app and write there,
    stop wasting time,...

    ...If you did you buy upgrade to LW 2020, don't write.. I don't want to hear lies from non-true-LightWavers...
    Wow.

    Lightwave IS my favorite 3D tool. If it wasn't I wouldn't waste any time weighing-in on the current state of affairs.

    Prior to today, it's been 11 years since I posted to this forum. I'm not surprised It still can be a snake pit. No matter.

    I've "invested" in nearly all releases since the initial Amiga Toaster release. I really didn't need to purchase the 2018 & 2019 upgrades - but I did because I wanted to support LW development.

    I feel like I've "paid my dues" Lightwave-wise and that I'm entitled to speak my concerns on the future of the product.

  14. #29
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    Newtek and now Vizrt refused to invest in Lightwave. 2020 is more of a bug fix than a full version, and it introduced bugs they haven't yet fixed before letting all the developers go.

    To make money LW needs more users. The only way to get that is to invest more money in catching up to the competition. It takes money to make money. They never understood this well known business principle. And so, they could never catch up and claim their rightful market share. It takes investment to catch up, but once caught up, they could bank on a good place in the market, with a quality product, for a good price. Users new and old would have reason to invest in a proven, up to date, pipline. The users didn't drop the ball, Newtek did. Vizrt just have no interest in picking the ball up. They are in a different business.

    I keep saying, "Let's hope they sell LW". Forget that. Let's pray they sell. It might do some good. Pray they sell it to someone with plenty of money to take it forward, who actually cares about it succeeding. Someone who wants everyone to be a Lightwaver. Pray because it will take a miracle at this point. And even a potential sale is fraught with danger. What if AD or Adobe buys it to kill or sub-paywall it? This sale only works, if the "seed of LW" lands on the good fertile ground, not on the rocks or in the thorns, so to speak.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingzeta View Post
    Newtek and now Vizrt refused to invest in Lightwave. 2020 is more of a bug fix than a full version, and it introduced bugs they haven't yet fixed before letting all the developers go.

    To make money LW needs more users. The only way to get that is to invest more money in catching up to the competition. It takes money to make money. They never understood this well known business principle. And so, they could never catch up and claim their rightful market share...The users didn't drop the ball, Newtek did...
    Very good post, exactly my opinion.

    The LW 2020 update is very thin and not worth the price in my opinion. I understand anyone who didn't buy it.

    I purchased the LW 2020 update on release day, like the versions before, as hobbyist and with LW is not being my main 3D app, nevertheless. So according Sensei's terms I'm not a Lightwaver but at least a customer :-)

    With NewTeks minimal efforts and investment, no interest, marketing or enthusiasm in the product it's no wonder LW is so far behind and lost its user base.

    No marketing, tutorials, etc. Maybe a content store or marketplace would have been a good idea at the release of LW 2018.

    LW3DG management (2015 - 2018 era) that seems to have no development lead or marketing experience. Big words, empty promises and lies (best architecture, geometry aware, hydra engine, pricing structure, endless fake sales). No communication or blog posts but complete silence for months.

    Some LW developers did a good job, specially the ones responsible for rendering and shading. But what do you expect with developers like the one who used to be responsible for UI and UX. No progress in decades, absolute minimum efforts and again, no enthusiasm. Not even fixing the most obvious flaws or low hanging fruits, release after release.

    In addition, no people left with artistic skills. It's obvious, just look what happened to the LW content after Lino was gone.

    Then on the other hand, most LW users were never big spenders, otherwise they would have purchased a more competitive and more expensive software in the beginning. Therefore it's no wonder many of them left to the free alternative (which unfortunately for NewTek got so much better in the last couple of years).

    Personally, I don't regret the LW 2020 upgrade and I'm not bitter about it (I like having the newest versions of applications) but I understand anyone who didn't upgrade because it's not really worth the price it in this case.

    LightWave for me is a good tool for some stuff like Volumetrics and I use it sometimes to compare results if something doesn't work as expected in other 3D apps (like FBX exchange, VDB, performance comparison etc) but for most things I would never use it, it's way too inefficient and limited. And as a fan of good plugins, the LW ecosystem has almost nothing to offer, the 3rd party plugins available mostly fix / workaround gaps in the main application - and that not even in an elegant way.

    What I really dislike is the NewTek and VizRT (product) management and their way of doing business. They are worse then Adobe and Autodesk together in my opinion.
    Last edited by Marander; 12-03-2020 at 06:11 AM.

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