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Thread: Interesting AVI codec Win/Mac

  1. #1
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Interesting AVI codec Win/Mac

    SynthEyes 1311 didn't seem to be compatible with the NewTek Speed HQ 4:4:4 codec, showing horrible artifacts, so I searched for a new AVI codec.

    I've found Ut Video Codec Suite 22.2.0 Windows and Ut Video Codec Suite 19.1.0 Mac in here: https://www.videohelp.com/software/Ut-Video-Codec-Suite

    My first compatibility tests with this lossless codec is very good.

    The 8bit codecs are compatible with everything I use: LW2015-2020, SynthEyes 1311, Fusion 9.0.2, Resolve 15.3.1, Vegas Pro 17.0, VirtualDub 1.10.4.

    Compression ratio:
    UtVideo T2 RGB BT.709 1:0,37
    UtVideo T2 YUV422 BT.709 1:0,24
    UtVideo T2 YUV444 BT.709 1:0,32
    UtVideo RGB BT.709 1:0,35
    UtVideo YUV420 BT.709 1:0,19
    UtVideo YUV422 BT.709 1:0,23
    UtVideo YUV444 BT.709 1:0,29

  2. #2
    I don't output video, usually stacks but when I do I use ProRes, seems OK to me, if I see artefacts I usually put it down to playback problems, file size for ProRes, even 4:4:4 is hard to beat compared to AVI, yes I know only the alpha is truly uncompressed but quality is great

  3. #3
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    In my case: I can only use ProRes in an older version of Vegas Pro, and only DaVinci Resolve can do DNxHR and DNxHD.
    Both ProRes and DNxXX are not exactly the universal video format for Windows applications in general
    like the VfW UtVideo and the NewTek Speed HQ codecs.

    Despite the current LW status I just sent a feature request to change AVI I/O support to OpenDML 1.02, and support AVI files > 2 or 4 GB in size.
    With UHD media clips it has become too easy to exceed the AVI/DirectDrawAVI limit.
    Image sequences are too slow for streaming playback, disk-2-disk copy, and virus scanners.
    Anno 2020 the AVI file format is still very convenient.

    Btw the UtVideo codec also has an RGBA mode.

  4. #4
    yes sorry, Apple seems to crap about Windows support, can think of better words but profanity seems to be frowned upon here

  5. #5
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Microsoft could also make a good effort to offer a modern version of AVI in 2021, especially for production purposes. It doesn't even have to be backward compatible.
    That shouldn't be a big problem with their budgets.

    Now every supplier has to figure it out for themselves, and we end up with applications that can only talk to each other at the impractical frame level.

  6. #6
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    BTW, here's the home of the "Ut Video Codec Suite" on Github, if you'd prefer for download and/or build from source.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

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    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Unfortunately my feature request has not been confirmed.
    Not a good sign.

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    Can you compare it with Lagarith Lossless Codec?
    Same input file. What will be compressed size.

  9. #9
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    Unfortunately my feature request has not been confirmed.
    Not a good sign.
    You filed it against Ut Video Codec project, or...?
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  10. #10
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    Despite the current LW status I just sent a feature request to change AVI I/O support to OpenDML 1.02, and support AVI files > 2 or 4 GB in size. With UHD media clips it has become too easy to exceed the AVI/DirectDrawAVI limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    You filed it against Ut Video Codec project, or...?
    No, the file size limitation seems to be a general problem, resulting in corrupted render output (AVI) files if you pass the 2 GB limit for AVI or the 4 GB limit for DirectDrawAVI.
    That happens especially if you use a lossless codec that only has a mild compression ratio (3:1), and/or a large frame size like UHD, and/or need many frames.

    For 8bit video data exchange between LightWave and Fusion (in both directions) and NLE I often need many frames in HD or UHD.

    UtVideo seems to support temporal compression but I haven't tested that yet.

  11. #11
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    Can you compare it with Lagarith Lossless Codec?
    Same input file. What will be compressed size.
    I just ran a quick test with a png sequence of 228 files, 2224x1080px from my Note9 phone (which is dropping frames in UHD 60fps hdr mode but that's another story), in VirtualDub, to generate both Lagarith and UtVideo AVI files.

    With Lagarith it processed with an average of 6.4 fps, SSD1 to SSD2.
    With UtVideo it could handle 7.0 fps, SSD1 to SSD2.
    So speed is a minor difference for short media clips.

    Transcoding from UtVideo AVI to an uncompressed target AVI file, VirtualDub could handle 51 fps, both SSD2 to SSD2 and SSD2 to SSD1. PNG -> UtVideo AVI 6.7 fps, SSD1 to SSD2.
    Transcoding from UtVideo AVI to an UtVideo target AVI file, VirtualDub handled 81 fps, SSD2 to SSD1.
    This confirms my point: for 8bit (streaming) video, AVI is a lot faster to handle and to use. In this case up to 12.5x faster compared to PNG rgb24 sequence. And it's still ideal to use in Layout as backplates or as texture on Objects.

    When I subtracted the streams in Fusion to check for compression artefacts both showed 100% black.
    So quality wise there seems to be no difference.

    Video 9.12 s file size
    Uncompressed AVI: 1.52 GB
    PNG sequence: 599 MB, 2.54:1 compression
    UtVideo RGB AVI: 502 MB, 3.03:1 compression
    Lagarith RGB AVI: 435 MB, 3.49:1 compression

    If we look at file size, then Lagarith is the winner, but ...
    I've been using Lagarith in the past for master files (10 to 25 minutes) of HD video, and noticed these files sometimes showed corrupted frames at random places in the file, so I stopped using it.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for taking time and checking it. Appreciated.

    I used Lagarith codec to initially capture AVI file from my desktop of almost the all video tutorials recording in the last ~8 years, and didn't notice any corrupted frames.. Maybe hundred files..

  13. #13
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Maybe a factor is that the content of a desktop recording usually doesn't change a lot, frame to frame - that could have helped.

    I couldn't find any obvious reason in those days.

  14. #14
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    The first thing if something like this happens, apart from downloading the latest version, is to disable multi-threading. It has modes RGB, RGBA, YUY2, YV12. There are versions for 32 bit and 64 bit. Plentiful things to check.

    Numerous times I was finding issues with H.264 DivX codec. Solution: find and use different option, or combinations of them, which work fine.

    There is source code available. One could debug it.

    I am skeptical that issues are random. Random trashes on some random frames (i.e. you encode 2nd time, and they are gone, or in different place) would mean that memory was trashed earlier (with 99% confidence)..
    such errors are ending up with random crashes very often (especially during quitting app, when memory is freed, but is corrupted, randomly overwritten some important parts).. Have you noticed Lagarith or app using this codec to crash? I don't recall..

    Memory trashing could happen outside of codec in app using codec.


    VirtualDub has TWO major versions.
    Original one you can get from:
    https://sourceforge.net/projects/virtualdub/
    It is v1.x (up to 1.10.4.35491 from 2013)

    and there is VirtualDub2, which you can get from:
    https://sourceforge.net/projects/vdfiltermod/
    It is v2.x (up to VirtualDub2_44282 from 2020)

    v1.x is buggy as hell! (on Win7+, on WinXP I was using it without problems)

    If you Google for "VirtualDub" I see just v1.x (the one you should avoid! unless you're using WinXP)

    When I said about using "VirtualDub" I meant v2.x (!!!) not buggy v1.x...
    (to be exact, VirtualDub2_44015, I have not upgraded to the latest release)


    So, if you're able, reproduce issue with trashed frames with v1.x, then download v2.x, and try to reproduce it again..
    If it will not happen, you will know that cause was VirtualDub v1.x (which has many issues on newer OS-es), not Lagarith..


    And avoid weird resolutions.. or at least be aware something has weird resolution.
    Last edited by Sensei; 10-27-2020 at 11:13 AM.

  15. #15
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    The first thing if something like this happens, apart from downloading the latest version, is to disable multi-threading. It has modes RGB, RGBA, YUY2, YV12. There are versions for 32 bit and 64 bit. Plentiful things to check.
    I did. The problem with 25 minutes master files at work: there is no time to check every frame, and no time to play with all parameters in various circumstances.
    Problems are much easier identified and solved if the errors are predictable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    I am skeptical that issues are random. Random trashes on some random frames (i.e. you encode 2nd time, and they are gone, or in different place) would mean that memory was trashed earlier (with 99% confidence)..
    such errors are ending up with random crashes very often (especially during quitting app, when memory is freed, but is corrupted, randomly overwritten some important parts).. Have you noticed Lagarith or app using this codec to crash? I don't recall..

    Memory trashing could happen outside of codec in app using codec.
    The application wasn't crashing. The export/transcoding process seemed to progress just fine.
    Then I checked the output file and it seemed fine as well.
    Much later I needed one of the files and noticed a single corrupted frame during re-edits.
    Three corrupted frames in 25 minutes is not so bad if they didn't look that colorful.
    I didn't have SSD's then so a new transcoding session took > 2 hours on my fastest (and the only suitable) machine that I had to use for all media related processes:
    audio, video, FX, 3D animation.
    That is the disadvantage of working in a company: you need to go on with your work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    VirtualDub has TWO major versions.
    Original one you can get from:
    https://sourceforge.net/projects/virtualdub/
    It is v1.x (up to 1.10.4.35491 from 2013)

    and there is VirtualDub2, which you can get from:
    https://sourceforge.net/projects/vdfiltermod/
    It is v2.x (up to VirtualDub2_44282 from 2020)

    v1.x is buggy as hell! (on Win7+, on WinXP I was using it without problems)

    If you Google for "VirtualDub" I see just v1.x (the one you should avoid! unless you're using WinXP)

    When I said about using "VirtualDub" I meant v2.x (!!!) not buggy v1.x...
    (to be exact, VirtualDub2_44015, I have not upgraded to the latest release)
    Thanks, I didn't know about VirtualDub2.
    Wow! It now even does MP4, MOV, 16-bit TIFF, and (yesss) alpha channels!
    And the list doesn't stop there: AviSynth script editor, native CineForm, X265, 6-axis color correction (almost seems to fit the X-rite colorchecker).
    Downloaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sensei View Post
    So, if you're able, reproduce issue with trashed frames with v1.x, then download v2.x, and try to reproduce it again..
    If it will not happen, you will know that cause was VirtualDub v1.x (which has many issues on newer OS-es), not Lagarith..

    And avoid weird resolutions.. or at least be aware something has weird resolution.
    I lose my job at the end of November so it's not really needed anymore for those long videos.
    In the next years at home I have to deal with short video- and animation clips for preview, intermediates, and final.
    UtVideo seems to be stable, reliable, and most importantly: the developers are still updating.

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