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Thread: What is Happening with LW?

  1. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Well, yes and no. .
    I don't disagree. I was just pointing out this is one of dozens of plans that an owner of an IP like LW might look into. The exact implementation of price and features could vary.

    It is just frustrating to see them fail to invest in the product at every turn. That users have to spitball ideas like this rather than the developer. The potential has always been there for LW to be successful / profitable, but the creativity has gone missing among the owners. And now it appears they are going to kill the product because it is not profitable, but it is their own fault it's not profitable. So I say, sell it to someone else, who understands the 3d market better, and is willing to take some risks.

  2. #992
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingzeta View Post
    It is just frustrating to see them fail to invest in the product at every turn. That users have to spitball ideas like this rather than the developer. The potential has always been there for LW to be successful / profitable, but the creativity has gone missing among the owners. And now it appears they are going to kill the product because it is not profitable, but it is their own fault it's not profitable. So I say, sell it to someone else, who understands the 3d market better, and is willing to take some risks.
    QFA! Not holding my breath, though.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  3. #993
    Just so you know, I was having a conversation with the support (via email) about the new Layout/Modeler weird sync behavior. Support used to reply within the hour.
    I send another feedback 3 days ago. I immediatly received a bot reply (thx for the report, I will get this report assigned - bla bla bla ...), it never happened before.
    It's been 3 days and still no reply.

  4. #994
    As I understand it, SOME lightwave developers were assimilated into the VizRT Collective. What they were working on in Lightwave might give a clue as to what VizRT's "plans" are.

  5. #995
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    You know what.

    If there would remotly be any chance they (vizrt) would consider future lw development, once they decide to, and once they actually hire new coders..it would also be nice
    if they could take advantage of addons Like the OD tools, buy it out from oliver since heīs not gonna update them I think, and include them natively in lightwave without too much extra adding on the main price for lightwave.

    When I saw the OD tools hype, I found it hard to get the grasp of what was in it all, maybe the marketing of it wasnīt that great..or I just didnīt spend time enough looking it up properly..however, something about it that didnīt got me looking it up as opposed to other plugins.

    Looking at it now, some things I would like to have, but also an internal conflict in my mind wether or not I think these things should be payed for as plugins or something they actually should have provided natively.
    Of course understandable that they canīt do that unless Oliver worked directly under newtek.

    But if thereīs a chance, buy him out and get these tools inside of lightwave, but of course..it means a dedication from Vizrt to continue the development and actually get coders first, and finally, get this arranged in a deal with oliver if he would accept what he would be offered.

    Links to vimeo for all the tools inside of OD Tools 2018...
    https://vimeo.com/showcase/4335852

  6. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    You know what.

    If there would remotly be any chance they (vizrt) would consider future lw development, once they decide to, and once they actually hire new coders..it would also be nice
    if they could take advantage of addons Like the OD tools, buy it out from oliver since heīs not gonna update them I think, and include them natively in lightwave without too much extra adding on the main price for lightwave.

    When I saw the OD tools hype, I found it hard to get the grasp of what was in it all, maybe the marketing of it wasnīt that great..or I just didnīt spend time enough looking it up properly..however, something about it that didnīt got me looking it up as opposed to other plugins.

    Looking at it now, some things I would like to have, but also an internal conflict in my mind wether or not I think these things should be payed for as plugins or something they actually should have provided natively.
    Of course understandable that they canīt do that unless Oliver worked directly under newtek.

    But if thereīs a chance, buy him out and get these tools inside of lightwave, but of course..it means a dedication from Vizrt to continue the development and actually get coders first, and finally, get this arranged in a deal with oliver if he would accept what he would be offered.

    Links to vimeo for all the tools inside of OD Tools 2018...
    https://vimeo.com/showcase/4335852
    By definition, plug-ins supply missing or enhanced replacement functionality.

    There isn't a 3D program in existance that does EVERYTHING for EVERYBODY right out of the "box".

    If there's a plug-in that provides what you need, why not get it?

  7. #997
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulk View Post
    By definition, plug-ins supply missing or enhanced replacement functionality.

    There isn't a 3D program in existance that does EVERYTHING for EVERYBODY right out of the "box".

    If there's a plug-in that provides what you need, why not get it?
    Well..I hope you donīt believe that I thought there is a 3D program in existence that does everything here? and that you are aware of how the development of lightwave is under a veil?

    Then...Because I have a certain standard criteria of what I think should be native VS payed for extra as addons.

    That doesnīt mean I Totally would exclude investing in it..I just rather not if itīs possible, and as you could read in my previous post, I could very well have purchased it before, the situation
    right now with the uncertainty of the lightwave development is about my trust in futuer development, and currently vizrt/newtek isnīt trusthworthy, which means I am most likely to decline any purchase of
    lightwave plugins whatsoever, except perhaps some 3rd powers tools.

    And my suggestion would probably...(provided they continue the development) be a good move to gain more tools and broaden Lightwave when they didnīt manage to put so much in the last release anyway, and with
    the notion that Oliver will not do any of this for Lightwave anymore.

    I also suspect the OD Tools is a bit more complex and connected to and subjected to the changes of layout, while for instance 3rd powers would probably work with some of my modeler versions for ages to come, and his tools is not something I consider should belong to a native tools, while many (not all) of Olivers I think should be natively implemented, especially since Lightwave developers destroyed the workflow for volumetric presets ala voxel style, and that is available only as payed Presets in OD tools.

  8. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Well..I hope you donīt believe that I thought there is a 3D program in existence that does everything here? and that you are aware of how the development of lightwave is under a veil?

    Then...Because I have a certain standard criteria of what I think should be native VS payed for extra as addons.

    That doesnīt mean I Totally would exclude investing in it..I just rather not if itīs possible, and as you could read in my previous post, I could very well have purchased it before, the situation
    right now with the uncertainty of the lightwave development is about my trust in futuer development, and currently vizrt/newtek isnīt trusthworthy, which means I am most likely to decline any purchase of
    lightwave plugins whatsoever, except perhaps some 3rd powers tools.

    And my suggestion would probably...(provided they continue the development) be a good move to gain more tools and broaden Lightwave when they didnīt manage to put so much in the last release anyway, and with
    the notion that Oliver will not do any of this for Lightwave anymore.
    No, I don't think you believe in a "perfect" 3D program, and yes, I am aware that Lightwave is in the same box as Schrödinger's cat.

    If one plans to stick with Lightwave, why not support 3rd party plug-ins?

    I'm not sure about Newtek buying plug-ins and "integrating" them into Lightwave. Whom do you think would maintain the plug-ins better, the original developer or Newtek?

  9. #999
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulk View Post
    No, I don't think you believe in a "perfect" 3D program, and yes, I am aware that Lightwave is in the same box as Schrödinger's cat.

    If one plans to stick with Lightwave, why not support 3rd party plug-ins?

    I'm not sure about Newtek buying plug-ins and "integrating" them into Lightwave. Whom do you think would maintain the plug-ins better, the original developer or Newtek?
    Well, I think in the case of OD Tools, where Oliver was explicitly trying to address specific UI/UX and workflow issues in Lightwave, the proper answer is for LW's devs to just ADDRESS those issues (f.e. a generally-useful preset / content library system, like everybody else has), so ODTools (and others like it) are a somewhat special "genre" of plugin. Denis P's got a bunch of those as well, f.e. nodes that really ought to be native nodes (as do DB&W, for that matter).

    There are definitely plugins where integration doesn't make sense (TFD is a great example), but when it comes to plugins that exist solely to address obvious UI/UX and workflow gaps that should have been addressed long ago in Lightwave proper (and there are quite a few such plugins), then it really is better for those to be addressed inside LW. Even integration doesn't necessarily make sense if faster/easier just to address the actual issue head-on in the native dev environment (and for many of Oliver's tools, that's likely the case). Buying key mechanisms from others, sure, but full-on plugin licensing and integration, not necessarily.
    Last edited by jwiede; 10-30-2020 at 02:33 PM.
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  10. #1000
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Well, I think in the case of OD Tools, where Oliver was explicitly trying to address specific UI/UX and workflow issues in Lightwave, the proper answer is for LW's devs to just ADDRESS those issues (f.e. a generally-useful preset / content library system, like everybody else has), so ODTools (and others like it) are a somewhat special "genre" of plugin. Denis P's got a bunch of those as well, f.e. nodes that really ought to be native nodes

    There are definitely plugins where integration doesn't make sense, but when it comes to plugins that exist solely to address obvious UI/UX and workflow gaps that should have been addressed long ago in Lightwave proper (and there are quite a few such plugins), then it really is better for those to be addressed inside LW. Even integration doesn't necessarily make sense if faster/easier just to address the actual issue head-on in the native dev environment (and for many of Oliver's tools, that's likely the case). Buying key mechanisms from others, sure, but full-on plugin licensing and integration, not necessarily.
    Good elaborate on this matter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by paulk View Post
    No, I don't think you believe in a "perfect" 3D program, and yes, I am aware that Lightwave is in the same box as Schrödinger's cat.

    If one plans to stick with Lightwave, why not support 3rd party plug-ins?

    I'm not sure about Newtek buying plug-ins and "integrating" them into Lightwave. Whom do you think would maintain the plug-ins better, the original developer or Newtek?
    Who said my plan is to stick with Lighwtave?
    If..is not me, you are adressing me, not if.


    Maintaining the plugins better? in this case, None of these three holy subjects.
    Solution..first buy his plugins out.
    Then sell Lightwave to a more caring of that product company.

  11. #1001
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulk View Post
    No, I don't think you believe in a "perfect" 3D program...
    That's right but Oliver tools are for the most part just workarounds for LW deficiencies.

    They are ok and almost a must for LW - but how many times have I seen Python exception errors using them, pointing to Olivers personal development folders. Poor error handling unfortunately and I would not accept it that way as native tools.

    I have all OD plugins, not just ODTools, but really, beside few exceptions they simply not required in other 3D apps I use. Substance support and UberPass should be basic functionality.

    3rd Powers plugins are very well done but they cover features that should be native (except maybe Metamesh). The LWBrush tools are simple and only work for basic tasks. Weight Painter is my favourite for LW but again, should be native.

    TrueText - another must-have in my opinion when doing anything with text in LW - sad that a plugin like that is even needed.

    DP plugins / nodes are great and generous of Dennis but relevant in a LW context only, not required in other apps - except some of the shaders.

    Actually only TFD, Advanced Placement (which only works up to LW 2015 and is very unstable and buggy) and the ArchViz part of LWCAD are plugins I would pay for in other apps.

    Plugins for my main 3D application (traffic and vehicle simulation, effects, fluid sims, nature tools, crowd sim etc.) are on a completely different level then what's available for LW.

    NewTek implemented the MetaMorphic tool which in my opinion doesn't work better then the original plugin, even if NewTek claimed they improved it. Parts of it are completely useless due to its bad performance.

    Having hundreds of Python plugins to fix issues (on top of LWs set of redundant tools) is not helping the usability.

    In addition, the way plugins are implemented in LW is not very elegant or user friendly in many cases.
    Last edited by Marander; 10-30-2020 at 04:10 PM.

  12. #1002
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Congrats to Prometheus for the 1000th post in this thread!!
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  13. #1003
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    NewTek implemented the MetaMorphic tool which in my opinion doesn't work better then the original plugin, even if NewTek claimed they improved it. Parts of it are completely useless due to its bad performance.
    That keyboard interaction doesn't work on Mac at ALL certainly doesn't enhance Metamorphic's usability or value, either. I think of all possible integration purchases in that timeframe, that was another "quick fix" attempt by Newtek that didn't pan out. Integrating either 3rdPower's PaintWeights or RH's RhiggitPro would have offered a LOT more lasting value and utility, because they were significantly "more mature" plugins (compared to Metamorphic). Moot point, really, but further highlights a lack of strategic thinking on Newtek's part (unlike prior plugin integrations).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Having hundreds of Python plugins to fix issues (on top of LWs set of redundant tools) is not helping the usability.
    Agreed 100% (if anything, that would seriously worsen usability). That was kind of my point. Don't integrate ODTools, instead use those as an enumeration of actual UI/UX/workflow defects that need to be fixed properly in LW itself. Alas, all of that would have required engineering leadership and planning, something Newtek never really took seriously w.r.t. LW in any recent years.

    VizRT need to sell LW to someone with the passion and resources to properly invest in it and manage it at all levels. In VizRT's hands, cetarus parabus, LW just continues to wither and decay.
    Last edited by jwiede; 10-30-2020 at 04:08 PM.
    John W.
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  14. #1004
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Congrats to Prometheus for the 1000th post in this thread!!
    Hey thanks, I need more coffee though, I first read it as I would have posted 1000 posts in this thread...and I wondered, what the heck is he talking about
    And I also turned 55 last saturday, so why not celebrate the numerical syncs we sometimes get in this world.

    will keep track on this when 10 000 post is closing in on us, and fight for that glory, and I am counting on my Wingmate Erikals to do most of the work up til then

  15. #1005
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post


    3rd Powers plugins are very well done but they cover features that should be native (except maybe Metamesh). The LWBrush tools are simple and only work for basic tasks. Weight Painter is my favourite for LW but again, should be native.
    I can chime in on that, but we are so many users, with so many views on what should and what not should be considered native.
    A poll would have to be extensive, or a special thread on it, that will go on for ever..even after Lightwave is no more...I am sure we then could discuss, it could have been native and not should be.

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