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Thread: What is Happening with LW?

  1. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    I am not a lawyer. The information provided in my posts do not, and are not intended to, constitute legal advice; instead, all information, content, and materials available in them are for general informational purposes only. Readers of my posts should contact their attorney to obtain advice with respect to any particular legal matter. No reader, user, or browser of this site should act or refrain from acting on the basis of information in my posts without first seeking legal advice from counsel in the relevant jurisdiction.



    Yes, it'd be great if an actual lawyer could provide some clarification.

    My layman understanding of it (again, see above) is that EULAs can set whatever terms they want. However numerous jurisdictions also have consumer protections statutes that intentionally disallow consumers from signing away certain rights, and thus even though a EULA may claim certain terms, they wouldn't constitute legally-enforceable terms in such jurisdictions. It gets even murkier when it comes to clauses exculpating liability for harm when it can be shown due to "reckless" action.

    A search on "unenforceable exculpatory clauses" might help, or might just make it more confusing -- and that's kind of the problem.
    You're right about making things more confusing. Also, nice butt covering at the start. That goes double for me.

    I'm just hoping/wishing/thinking outside the box for some way to keep Lightwave in the race.

    Maybe VizRT doesn't KNOW what they want to do with Lightwave. That could be A Good Thing.

  2. #917
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulk View Post
    You're right about making things more confusing. Also, nice butt covering at the start. That goes double for me.

    I'm just hoping/wishing/thinking outside the box for some way to keep Lightwave in the race.

    Maybe VizRT doesn't KNOW what they want to do with Lightwave. That could be A Good Thing.
    Itīs a nowhere good thing, itīs better than a complete we intent to shut down Lighwtave, but not better than..we know what to do with it in terms of pushing it forward.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by paulk View Post
    You're right about making things more confusing. Also, nice butt covering at the start. That goes double for me.

    I'm just hoping/wishing/thinking outside the box for some way to keep Lightwave in the race.

    Maybe VizRT doesn't KNOW what they want to do with Lightwave. That could be A Good Thing.
    Itīs a nowhere good thing, itīs better than a complete we intent to shut down Lighwtave, but not better than..we know what to do with it in terms of pushing it forward.

  3. #918
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulk View Post
    Maybe VizRT doesn't KNOW what they want to do with Lightwave. That could be A Good Thing.
    Hmmm....

    (1 Apr 2019, day of VizRT acquisition)

    Quote Originally Posted by ACross View Post
    Over the past 5 years, you have seen us push IP to new places with NDI; we have continued to push the envelope of software-based, real-time systems and at the same time hopefully kept them fun and easy to use, also adding major innovations all along the way. If you go back just 4 years and think what the market looked like, our showing up at IBC to show all IP-based systems seemed like science-fiction.

    In much the same way, VizRT have always built software based products. They have targeted those products at different markets from us, but have ultimately still seen the same future for TV. Us coming together is not about NewTek becoming Viz or Viz becoming NewTek. This is about building a company that sees the future of video as one based on computers, software and networks. We both believe in this vision, and between us have products that range from high-schools up to the highest level of broadcast - all driven by software. People worried that Viz will change NewTek (or we will change Viz) are both wrong. This is about building something bigger than that.

    As I wrote above, I have been at NewTek 20 years. I feel like our products, including NDI, are my children. Those things are not going to change; I am not abandoning my kids. NDI will remain free, and we will continue to push the envelope on TriCaster, 3Play, etc., as much or even more than before. Come to our user event at NAB and I am sure that you will see that. We are going to be showing some truly amazing things. And we will announce NDI v4 as (which is still free of course)

    Our drive and vision remains the same.
    versus...

    (8 Sept 2020, shortly after news broke publicly that VizRT had let go multiple LW developers/staff)

    Q: Will development continue on this product?

    A: We have just released LightWave 3D 2020, which has been well received by the market and our immediate focus is on supporting the adoption of this latest version. As a company (and like most companies) we do not talk about our development and future plans for our products.
    There appears to be a substantial inconsistency in how VizRT customer communication policies are interpreted and applied for Newtek video product customers, versus for Newtek Lightwave customers.

    After the above, I see little reason to give VizRT further "benefit of the doubt" when it comes to their intentions regarding Lightwave. YMMV.
    Last edited by jwiede; 10-13-2020 at 06:32 PM.
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  4. #919
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Hmmm....

    (1 Apr 2019, day of VizRT acquisition)



    versus...

    (8 Sept 2020, shortly after news broke publicly that VizRT had let go multiple LW developers/staff)



    There appears to be a substantial inconsistency in how VizRT customer communication policies are interpreted and applied for Newtek video product customers, versus for Newtek Lightwave customers.

    After the above, I see little reason to give VizRT further "benefit of the doubt" when it comes to their intentions regarding Lightwave. YMMV.

    I agree, it just makes you distrust what they actually say even more unfortunately, a bad move/statement to put it that way instead of full honesty wether or not the development will continue Or Not, they didnīt have to disclose
    all the details though of how they intended to go on with it.

    Seems pretty much a Lot of people take it that way as well, not just you and I, so no..it didnīt come out well that comment.

  5. #920
    ack ack Markc's Avatar
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    Latest release from VizRt......
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  6. #921
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    Does anyone here really care anymore. Even if LW continues I don't think it's going to be the LW we know and love and I will put money on it not at the price point we know either. So in all honesty the result is the same.
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  7. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    Does anyone here really care anymore. Even if LW continues I don't think it's going to be the LW we know and love and I will put money on it not at the price point we know either. So in all honesty the result is the same.
    I do. I think LW could make a comeback with the right fortitude of an owner and become a much better app in the process. An new owner could breath new life into the classic. If it updated its modeling and merged it with layout and had a low cost of entry and even lower cost of upgrades and with a little bit of marketing - I think young newcomers would take notice, even with the free Blender out there.
    Tim Parsons

  8. #923
    Registered User jimzombie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Parsons View Post
    I do. I think LW could make a comeback with the right fortitude of an owner and become a much better app in the process. An new owner could breath new life into the classic. If it updated its modeling and merged it with layout and had a low cost of entry and even lower cost of upgrades and with a little bit of marketing - I think young newcomers would take notice, even with the free Blender out there.
    Hear hear!

  9. #924
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Parsons View Post
    I do. I think LW could make a comeback with the right fortitude of an owner and become a much better app in the process. An new owner could breath new life into the classic. If it updated its modeling and merged it with layout and had a low cost of entry and even lower cost of upgrades and with a little bit of marketing - I think young newcomers would take notice, even with the free Blender out there.
    I agree (for the most part.)
    Not sure lower cost would be possible, as user numbers dwindle it means prices need to be higher in order to pay for development But I guess if there was some money put aside by a new owner, they might be able to develop and offer at a good price.
    I'd be happy if they offered a higher price for perpetual licensing, and then cheaper for those who want to subscribe. I'd be fine with either, but I know some people hate subs... I'm fine with it so long as it's not Autodesk!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    I agree (for the most part.)
    Not sure lower cost would be possible, as user numbers dwindle it means prices need to be higher in order to pay for development But I guess if there was some money put aside by a new owner, they might be able to develop and offer at a good price.
    I'd be happy if they offered a higher price for perpetual licensing, and then cheaper for those who want to subscribe. I'd be fine with either, but I know some people hate subs... I'm fine with it so long as it's not Autodesk!!!
    A side effect of subs is that the license mechanism need to be adjusted and in most cases I've seen so far this is done with online activation.

    I would never update to a version of LightWave with any online activation or period online check - I trust NewTek & VizRT even less then Autodesk or Adobe. To me it doesn't matter what company, I don't rent software (or any other thing for that matter). OK, no rule without exception - Houdini Indie is very well priced and incredible powerful, absolutely worth the price.

    VizRT already has subscriptions, so most likely future version of LightWave could also have a new licensing. Anyway I see chances towards zero that there will be any further development.

    The gap to other 3D applications widen by the day and there would be huge development team required to even remotely be able to catch up.

  11. #926
    Plays with fire sadkkf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Parsons View Post
    I do. I think LW could make a comeback with the right fortitude of an owner and become a much better app in the process. An new owner could breath new life into the classic. If it updated its modeling and merged it with layout and had a low cost of entry and even lower cost of upgrades and with a little bit of marketing - I think young newcomers would take notice, even with the free Blender out there.
    I agree it can be resurrected. It has a long way to go and integrating Modeler and Layout would really mean building a totally new app. That might be a smarter approach.
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  12. #927
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadkkf View Post
    I agree it can be resurrected. It has a long way to go and integrating Modeler and Layout would really mean building a totally new app. That might be a smarter approach.
    Newtek attempted that before, of course. It would be a vast undertaking, and a dedicated development team would probably need at least 5 years of development for that to happen. And at that point the software would still be behind the competitors.

    No revenue from Lightwave sales for at least a few years during development, because no-one at the company will be updating the old Lightwave. And only a few very loyal users would be inclined to support an app that is no longer supported or developed while waiting 4-5 years for a new version to appear. This is the conundrum Newtek faced so many years ago: put 100% of dev efforts into a new modernized consolidated Lightwave and updated tools, without any financial support outside of other revenue streams, or continue to support the old version with updates, and fragment development resources, slowing down development of the modernized version.

    Meanwhile users have access to a powerful free alternative that is steadily progressing and improved at a high rate, and other commercial 3d apps offering their wares at low rental prices. Which also progress in that time.

    Ask yourself: who, in a clear state of mind for business, would invest in such an endeavour? It is a really hard sell. No wonder that Vizrt decided to pull the plug.

    Not saying it can't be done. But realistically I think no software development company in their right mind (unless they have money to burn and have a long-term commitment and roadmap with intent behind it) would accept this challenge. There is absolutely no guarantee an updated consolidated Lightwave would even generate enough interest when it hits the market in five or six years time. In a few years time only the most dedicated LW users would still be using Lightwave. Who would be persuaded to switch to a resurrected Lightwave that still lags behind the competition?

    Only a small group of users.

    Perhaps the current dedicated loyal LW users could try to convince Vizrt to sell Lightwave to them in the state it is, and then open source it. Remove all the licensed components. It worked for Blender. It worked for OpenToonz (well, it wasn't purchased, but open sourced). Indy developers have a tendency to want to work on these type of projects on the side, or even full time. OpenToonz attracted one developer to build a Linux version quite early after. Others chimed in, and the app is now, after a few years, a solid professional 2d animation app.

    Heck, although I no longer use Lightwave for work anymore, I would gladly support this and sponsor it. Perhaps even consider combining parts of Blender's code components and integrate into a new updated Lightwave version.
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  13. #928
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    Quote Originally Posted by sadkkf View Post
    I agree it can be resurrected. It has a long way to go and integrating Modeler and Layout would really mean building a totally new app. That might be a smarter approach.
    The code is still of value. Time does decrease the value though. You wouldn't start from scratch. There are a few other options.

    1. Keeping the two app split. Update Modeler, and live with it. It's only a problem in some areas. Every app has it's shortfalls. That would be LW's shortfall for the foreseeable future. It could still be a successful product, with some updates and MARKETING.

    2. Add modeling tools to Layout, making Modeler redundant. Seemed like this was what they were working towards, when they supposedly did a lot of "under the hood" geo engine work between 2015 and 2018.

    3. Work out some kind of umbrella framework that the various modules of code can be plugged into. Obviously with a ton of work. Basically unification, without starting from scratch.

    Any of these could be achieved leveraging the existing code as a start (not saying it would be simple, so take it easy). It just takes investment that they have been unwilling to do. All along it probably needed a company with deeper pockets, but they didn't want to sell it to one. And, of course in that event, we would most likely end up with some subscription situation, that would drive half the users to blender anyway.

    If it became open source, it would be amazing, because I do believe, it is a better basis for a 3D app than blender. Far more logical and direct to use. Blender has pulled way ahead in terms of tech, but LW still has a workflow that would be more elegant, if it had the same tech. If LW was open source, and enthusiastic developers had access to grab parts of blender code, such as the fluid simulators and evee, they wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel to make a lot of progress. That is very unlikely, but one can dream. And no, I don't think you can just copy and paste some blender code into LW. The point is, a lot of tools do have code and algorithms that can be adapted, or copied when you don't have to reverse engineer it to be legal.

    Let's just hope vizrt are willing to sell it to someone who cares. I don't want to see LW end.

  14. #929
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Suggested solution to find out what is possible and not.

    Locate Rob Powers, where ever he is? and perhaps one of the main coders for the geo engine.
    Buy them a lot of beers for old times sake and do so with admiration and a big big smile, lace the drinks with Pentothal, and then ask how difficult it was
    with that hydra engine to get ready for layout modeling tasks.

    The truth is out there.

  15. #930
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Suggested solution to find out what is possible and not.

    Locate Rob Powers, where ever he is? and perhaps one of the main coders for the geo engine.
    Buy them a lot of beers for old times sake and do so with admiration and a big big smile, lace the drinks with Pentothal, and then ask how difficult it was
    with that hydra engine to get ready for layout modeling tasks.

    The truth is out there.
    Ha ha. Yeah, maybe we need Project Veritas to go undercover on the LW case.

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