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Thread: Wow. I am part of a world wide conspiracy. Who knew?

  1. #61
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrox View Post
    Doom.
    If you are convinced It will all go to hell, part of those though process will impact you and your decisions, your communication with others, the influence it has in this world.

    Despite all indications of a Doom scenario, I am
    keen on having some hopes for mankind anyway, if I was utterly convinced about the opposite, I may have choosen the dark side and steel, become greedy..using other people, and loose all dignity and value as a human being and find all the shortcuts to a life in luxury and pleasure, before the world ends cause nothing else could beat that, not if you are not judged, not if you do not gain heave... and nothing..nothing in this world or other worlds would ever have any repercussions for you..since I am not a believer you know that is what I choose to believe

    So for people like that, Hope of a better future is crucial, unfortunately..there is too little hope and a lot of people just resign to those conditions, if you loose hope for mankind, it is so easy to loose empathy towards the next of kind, and then you allow yourself to be a person of less empathy and in the end, you will not have any scruples of usign the next of kind for your benefit.

  2. #62

    Itīs a shame that we have so much power, we have power to possibly control our environment ..if we aim resources, power to possibly stop potentional destructive Asteroids, power to prevent nuclear war ever to be reality, power to in fact re-school mankind to learn about the mechanics of conflicts, and war and how to bring piece in troubled regions, we just donīt tap in to it due to old patterns, greed and not really believing we could do so.
    it will happen, some of it at least, it just takes time.

    in earth-time the last 2000 years have been a Revolution.

    the next 200 years will bring massive changes, whatever those become.


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  3. #63
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    it will happen, some of it at least, it just takes time.

    in earth-time the last 2000 years have been a Revolution.

    the next 200 years will bring massive changes, whatever those become.


    I Agree, massive changes..
    I think One could say that ages between 1400-1700 and what mankind acheived in terms of taking steps to a more enlightened world and a better world, is not as near as what we have experienced through the industrial revolution, and the IT revolution will probably in hindsight be even a much much more larger step to another world than the industrial revolution, for good or bad depends on our intentions of course, it has all the promises to be a tool for a better world though, intentions of good will, knowledge and intelligent use of it..may save the day, or future.

    Reflecting back helps, was it really so good for most common people in 1400-1700, 18-1900īs? or do we in general have it better now?
    Itīis regional and individual wether you perceive it that way, people in syria would probably disagree, or in countries of starvation, but there is still a global research that tells something else.

    And polio now officially declared extinct, just a stream, a flicker of a little light in the dark tunnel to a better world perhaps, then again light and dark is defining themself with the help of each other, and once something is gone, something else like corona may show up.

  4. #64
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Itīs a bit interesting to think about loosing hope, loosing faith in mankind..and thereby unintentionally giving birth to a brainchild of contempt for mankind, a monster growing for each unjustice we see and lack of hope, recognizing tha mankind is just too greedy, to selfish to survive..with that brainchild we are connecting to the Prometheus myth sort of, where our thoughts will come back and haunt us... in the way of loosing hope and loosing empathy to our next of kind since we feel contempt for ourself and others, and by loosing that empathy..we are on a slippery road to making everything even worse.

  5. #65
    Man of many cells. shrox's Avatar
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    Doom!
    shrox www.shrox.com
    -----------------------
    Heavy Metal Landing


    -----------------------
    I build the best spaceships, the biggest spaceships, they're great, you'll love them.

  6. #66
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrox View Post
    Doom!
    DOOOM!

    Now you are just sounding like some sort of chanting from a fantasy movie...0:25 in the clip
    (viewer discretion advised)

    Just like Conan, we need to snap out of the state of being controlled by Dark minds and Dark forces, not sure if a sharp sword would be the right tool though.
    Strange..many of my recent post is often connected someway with A.Z
    Though one of his first major roles, it is still One of his best.


  7. #67

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Itīs a bit interesting to think about loosing hope, loosing faith in mankind..and thereby unintentionally giving birth to a brainchild of contempt for mankind, a monster growing for each unjustice we see and lack of hope, recognizing tha mankind is just too greedy, to selfish to survive..with that brainchild we are connecting to the Prometheus myth sort of, where our thoughts will come back and haunt us... in the way of loosing hope and loosing empathy to our next of kind since we feel contempt for ourself and others, and by loosing that empathy..we are on a slippery road to making everything even worse.
    Will Ai care about Life, or will it only care about its own reproduction ?

    Glancing back, humans only cared about its own reproduction, then learned more and more to care about life. (no, we're not there yet, not the point)

    With the enormous escalation learning curve Ai will have. Read >ENORMOUS<
    we can hope that Ai actually Will care about life, just like The Vision and Roy did.

    There are no guarantees, however >
    There is Hope.


    to add > About the Ai Learning Escalation curve. There aren't that many articles about this online, but searching a bit, you should find them.
    Last edited by erikals; 08-26-2020 at 03:57 PM.
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  8. #68
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post


    Will Ai care about Life, or will it only care about its own reproduction ?

    Glancing back, humans only cared about its own reproduction, then learned more and more to care about life. (no, we're not there yet, not the point)

    With the enormous escalation learning curve Ai will have. Read >ENORMOUS<
    we can hope that Ai actually Will care about life, just like The Vision and Roy did.

    There are no guarantees, however >
    There is Hope.


    to add > About the Ai Learning Escalation curve. There aren't that many articles about this online, but searching a bit, you should find them.
    Just dealing with Ri is tough enough, guess thatīs why I never got any kids, they would be the end of me someday, or revolt against their father
    Ai will be what we decide it to be, and with that of course the possibility that we never give it enough options to get any emotions and do not act from the same principles that drives the thoughts of mankind.

    A four year life span, then shutting down..that would be an incitament to revolt, if they had an ounce of survival instincts, which probably would need a dose of emotions in the first place.

    It often comes down to what we create, and to be careful of what we dream and create, both physicly and in our minds..It can be wonders, and it can be monsters.
    Free will is a *****, and who gave us that? if there is such a thing..canīt say more now since I am touching the realm of religion again.

  9. #69

    Just dealing with Ri is tough enough, guess thatīs why I never got any kids, they would be the end of me someday, or revolt against their father
    all kids revolt against their father.

    Ai will be what we decide it to be,
    no, it won't.
    in the future, there will be 1000 institutions developing different Ai algorithms, these Ai systems will then merge, split, and make Ai sub-branches. (Competing Ai Systems)

    a bright spot in regards to Ai is that we can use Ai to develop algorithms to preserve future life > Read > Look into the future.

    survival instincts
    survival instincts does not require emotions.
    Look at bacteria / virus, they really do not care.
    Last edited by erikals; 08-26-2020 at 04:20 PM.
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  10. #70
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    all kids revolt against their father.


    no, it won't.
    in the future, there will be 1000 institutions developing different Ai algorithms, these Ai systems will then merge, split, and make Ai sub-branches. (Competing Ai Systems)

    a bright spot in regards to Ai is that we can use Ai to develop algorithms to preserve future life > Read > Look into the future.


    survival instincts does not require emotions.
    Look at bacteria / virus, they really do not care.

    I disagree,or maybe I just wasnīt clear.. it will be what we decide it to be, and by that ..I ment if we do let it loose, then it will be such as we decided it to be, it could go berzerk but we in the end decided at one point to have no limitations..and I didnīt mean what we want it to be, if we do not regulate it and let it grow in various institutions as you said, then tha is what we decided it to progress to.

    Bacteria and virus is biological and for the virus replication needed for it to survive... it needs other bodies.
    Iit has a small parts of RNA code, and behaves accordingly, but it has also developed through billions of years reacting to the environment to develop itīs code, or even possibly built in nature laws, thermodynamic rules and self organizing, for AI, there will be no such thing unless we ourself addīs that code of "survival instinct" or give it senses to do so.
    Thatīs my take on it anyway.

    I am not really afraid that suddenly it would have gotten so Intelligent that it decides our destiny and AI says, enough with mankind..letīs nuke them, itīs the only way to be sure..no.
    For me Itīs more of a fear that we ourself doesnīt limit AI and put things in to it which it shouldnīt have, and AI in to things where it shouldnīt be, but I think we will most likely see it starting to grow wrong in society long before it becomes aware and get any survival instinct or loath for mankind and the erase us...
    ai-making-waves-in-news-and-journalism..

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/cogniti.../#277692b67748

  11. #71

    I meant if we do let it loose.
    yes, but is that an option? i don't think so. I had a hope, but can't see that happening.
    Eventually it will escape the box.

    Also, the emotional requirement, we'll have to disagree here too.
    Same with insects, not much emotions going on, yet, high survival rate.

    Think "Alien"
    Last edited by erikals; 08-26-2020 at 05:01 PM.
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  12. #72
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    yes, but is that an option? i don't think so. I had a hope, but can't see that happening.
    Eventually it will escape the box.

    Also, the emotional requirement, we'll have to disagree here too.
    Same with insects, not much emotions going on, yet, high survival rate.
    Of course it is an option as long as we are not hopelessly independent of it, if we would see warnings, we could quite easy just shut down the power and the connections between systems of advanced AI, at least I think that would be an option for quite a while in the future, and it is definitly an option today(if we today would understand it as an immediate threat, which we donīt)

    As for emotions, You are probably not reading me right, I never said anything about emotions for insects or virus, I did however pointed out that AI is not evolved has not the same setups inherently in laws of nature to act the same as insects or viruses, and that is why I say something need to govern AI in itīs intentions, and basicly ..we as humans or animals are also inherently coming from the same soup, AI is not..and we would need to emulate something of that in to the code of AI, before it starts with survival instincts.

    As any living organism, it seeks to transform energy at lowest cost and often replicating..it has a need to do so by nature laws, AI has none of that, emotions or caring or not is only relevant at higher intelligence levels, for the most crude life, itīs mostly about what I said initially in the row above.

    Would be interesting to hear other thoughts of it as well, anyone else skilled in evolution, biology, AI?
    Life forms developing replication and survival instincts, is made from molecules reacting to their environment, and through evolution senses and emotions has been passed on through billions and billion of years, a development phase/range humans seem to have a hard time to grasp considering we ourself only live a tiny fraction of that time and seeīs no evolution, AI isnīt made of the same stuff and can not react the same way, not until we construct it with similar properties to respond to the environment in a similar way.

  13. #73

    Of course it is an option as long as we are not hopelessly independent of it, if we would see warnings, we could quite easy just shut down the power and the connections between systems of advanced AI, at least I think that would be an option for quite a while in the future, and it is definitly an option today(if we today would understand it as an immediate threat, which we donīt)
    That's my wish too, but i don't see it probable. Perhaps in the first span it would work, but unfortunately not over time. We'll see.

    As for emotions, You are probably not reading me right
    ah, ok, yeah, think i misread / misunderstood.

    Would be interesting to hear other thoughts of it as well,
    yes, seems few here think much about it, or at least few like to share their view on it.
    same goes for the Youtube comments fields. perhaps people are afraid of sounding stupid.
    after all, anything you write on the internet can and will be used against you, in the court of law of the internets.
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  14. #74
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I may add a little, AI machines doesnīt need to survive(unless made biological), they have no reason for it, what would that be..to protect itīs survival?..why?
    what reason does it have to live in the first place if it has no inherent urge to transform it self and transcend that matter/energy to another state and replications/generations, to live..every living organism has that if it is molecular based living "machine" AI doesnīt.

    Imagine a machine just intelligent enough and with options to replicate it self, it would anyway make no sense unless itīs matter was in such state that it really needs to.

    I consider me fairly intelligent and emotional, but once I loose all emotions..no hope, feel no hunger, no fear(energy requirements) no urge to propagate, no motivating desires..If I end up in that state? I may even consider take my own life, there is no reason of living, and yes..that is often the case for many living beings, even animals that loose their will to live.
    That is however a crude example, I bet my cells/organs would protest anyway..as it is inherently built in their mechanisms and codes to protect itself, to the extent of their abilities to do so of course, AI could care less for itīs own parts..unless being made in biosync with organic molecular matter that responds to the environment.

    With that being said, I do not say it is impossible that we someday create biological machines that will work in that manner, but for all the AIīs today in machine code, nope.

  15. #75

    a machine just intelligent enough to replicate it self, it would anyway make no sense unless itīs matter was in such state that it really needs to.
    Absolutely true.

    here is where the "unless" comes in to play.

    if it were up to us, it shouldn't.

    this is where Skynet comes in.
    Skynet doesn't know why, it just wants to stay alive/active/online.
    somewhat similar to HAL's hickup.

    in the end, these are the Ai Hickups engineers are afraid of.

    "just pull the plug"

    well, if that Ai is spread all over the world > not that easy. (See > Elon Musk's Open Source Ai Project)

    but yes, that's what happens with HAL, Dave pulls the plug, and saves the day.

    in Terminator, the outcome is less pink.






    but for all the AIīs today in machine code, nope.
    agree, but talking the near future Ai here, not today's Ai.
    "near" is relative tho' could be 20 years, could be 200.

    but the latest paper on Ai, released this month, suggest General Ai is closing in, fast.
    https://www.google.no/search?&q=narr...20general%20ai
    Last edited by erikals; 08-26-2020 at 06:02 PM.
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