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Thread: FX Emitter/Collision issues

  1. #1

    FX Emitter/Collision issues

    I've been using Lightwave for about a billion years, and have recently moved to 2018 (I bought it some time ago, but couldn't make the switch from 11.6.3 because it would disrupt the workflow for a big project) and I'm having some real issues with stuff I thought I'd managed to do pretty easily years ago in 11.

    I've managed to get this effect working, but it's hard to be sure because FX Emitter/Collisions seem to suddenly be incredibly unreliable. I've seen several issues, and I'm trying to work out if it's me or Lightwave. The issues are so problematic that I can't seriously believe that I'd be the first person to notice, so I feel like I must be doing it wrong.

    Nevertheless, here's one of the issues I was able to reproduce in a clean scene.

    Please see this handy GIF illustrating the problem:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The particles are meant to be colliding with the box. When I used "calculate", they pass through it. When I change a random setting on the particle emitter, then put it back again, it works. When I click "calculate" it breaks again. That doesn't seem right, and it's caused me no end of headaches as this and other things in my scene would intermittently stop working after I tried to Calculate.

    I've attached the scene for the above GIF: particle-issue-repro.zip

    Here's my questions:
    - this is broken, right?
    - does this also happen for anyone else on 2018, 2019 or 2020? If anyone could verify, that would be helpful. If it's a bug, I'm happy to report it as one, but no point if it's been fixed in a newer version.

  2. #2
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    The scene works as it should in LW 2019.1.5
    It erases upon calculation.
    previous version or later, I donīt know.

  3. #3
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I also think you are trying to set it up the wrong way if you intend to have the erased particles spawn new exploding particles, you have a second emitter set as generate nozzle parent collision, that will not work with the particles but only when you use a collision force to hit and drive the particles generation.
    for that secondary particle emitter you would need to set it to generate by parent emitter particle end..if I recall right, I am not sure..but I think there is a bug in that part of the calculation for spawning upon erase and death of a parent emitter and child emitter, but thatīs not the issue here.

  4. #4
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I can see a problem, you are messing with groups.
    the scene you provided has it already checked to use the impact group for the first emitter, if you by accident changed that to default and calculate, the particles will go through it all..maybe thatīs what you did?

  5. #5
    Thanks for the feedback, prometheus. Sounds like you're right about the way I'm setting it up, I'll check that out later.

    Thanks for testing on 2019. I just realised I could simply get the demo of 2020 and try it there too. I'm seeing a different problem there. Calculate works fine in 2020, but as soon as I toggle a setting like I did before, the particles behave as though their life span is 30 frames instead of the 120 defined in the emitter. I guess this is a bug too, but a different one. Yay.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I also tried the actual main scene I was working on originally in LW2020 to see if FX was overall working better in that version, but Layout just freezes hard as soon as I try to scrub the timeline. So I'm getting really stuck here. EDIT: In the course of troubleshooting that, I encountered two new bugs. Background image sequences can make Layout freeze, and when I removed it, something else made it freeze while I scrubbed the timeline. Super yay.
    Last edited by DiscoBurgess; 07-23-2020 at 09:06 AM.

  6. #6
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Hereīs one scene but in two LW versions with a setup for particles to spawn explode based on when the parent emitter particles dies upon hitting a collision object set to erase.
    No true geometry but only particle emitters and one collision object.
    One group created called end, which only effects the collision object and the parent particles, but not the spawned exploding particles.

    itīs in the 2015.3 version and 2019.1.5 version.

    now..if you simple re-enter the birth rate particles for the child emitter, they should start to spawn exactly when the parent emitter particles are erased, otherwise when playing or scrubbing the timeline, they will start too late...so the birth rate always need to be updated by re-entering the same value or replace with another value.
    And of course..you should just also be able to calculate it to be absolutely sure.

    They worked the same for me within 2015.3 and the 2019.1.5 Lightwave version.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Hereīs one scene but in two LW versions with a setup for particles to spawn explode based on when the parent emitter particles dies upon hitting a collision object set to erase.
    No true geometry but only particle emitters and one collision object.
    One group created called end, which only effects the collision object and the parent particles, but not the spawned exploding particles.

    itīs in the 2015.3 version and 2019.1.5 version.

    now..if you simple re-enter the birth rate particles for the child emitter, they should start to spawn exactly when the parent emitter particles are erased, otherwise when playing or scrubbing the timeline, they will start too late...so the birth rate always need to be updated by re-entering the same value or replace with another value.
    And of course..you should just also be able to calculate it to be absolutely sure.

    They worked the same for me within 2015.3 and the 2019.1.5 Lightwave version.
    Thank you, that's super helpful, I'll check these out. Its starting to seem like only 2018 has the worst version of this bug, which means I'm going to have to pay to upgrade, or work out why Image Viewer now freezes my machine in 11.6.3. Hopefully I can solves the issues in one of these versions.

  8. #8
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    Your initial problem is a LW2018 bug. There, collisions ignore object transforms. So PFX always see your cube at 0,0,0. Particles will collide at 0,0,0 if you run the animation longer. And if you switch to a Collision procedural (add Collision thru FXbrowser) set to Box, it works correctly. But that may not help your initial scene. Particle collisions have always been very glitchy with meshes. I use the procedural collisions whenever possible.

    In LW2020, you kinda have the opposite problem. The particle lifetime is not ending at 30 when you change a setting. Instead, particles are default colliding with your cube as if it is still at 0,0,0. But when you click calculate they interact with the transformed object correctly.

    All of these issues are gone in LW11 where it all works correctly. PFX got wonked in New LW. But PFX needs MAJOR renovation. PFX features have not really changed since LW7.
    Last edited by Mr Rid; 07-24-2020 at 06:51 AM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Rid View Post
    Your initial problem is a LW2018 bug. There, collisions ignore object transforms. So PFX always see your cube at 0,0,0. Particles will collide at 0,0,0 if you run the animation longer. And if you switch to a Collision procedural (add Collision thru FXbrowser) set to Box, it works correctly. But that may not help your initial scene. Particle collisions have always been very glitchy with meshes. I use the procedural collisions whenever possible.

    In LW2020, you kinda have the opposite problem. The particle lifetime is not ending at 30 when you change a setting. Instead, particles are default colliding with your cube as if it is still at 0,0,0. But when you click calculate they interact with the transformed object correctly.

    All of these issues are gone in LW11 where it all works correctly. PFX got wonked in New LW. But PFX needs MAJOR renovation. PFX features have not really changed since LW7.
    That explains a lot! Okay, thank you for this information. It's extremely annoying to have paid for an upgrade I can't use, and to also now be locked out of LW11 because Image Viewer freezes up Layout completely. Combined with a number of other new PFX bugs I encountered (this was the only one I could reproduce reliably) I've kind of hit a wall here. I've been using LW for a heck of a long time, and this is the first time I've hit an absolute dead stop with it.

    (I know, I should submit a bug reports for these, but it's quite a major undertaking to work out repro cases for everything.)

  10. #10
    Profesor Pixel Poo Mr Rid's Avatar
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    What "image viewer?" Image viewing should work fine in LW11. And you should be able to run your PFX in LW11 and load the caches into LW2018. I recently used LW11 for several PFX shots because it is the last version we had where voxels worked with moblur.
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  11. #11
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBurgess View Post
    That explains a lot! Okay, thank you for this information. It's extremely annoying to have paid for an upgrade I can't use, and to also now be locked out of LW11 because Image Viewer freezes up Layout completely. Combined with a number of other new PFX bugs I encountered (this was the only one I could reproduce reliably) I've kind of hit a wall here. I've been using LW for a heck of a long time, and this is the first time I've hit an absolute dead stop with it.

    (I know, I should submit a bug reports for these, but it's quite a major undertaking to work out repro cases for everything.)
    Definitely tricky working out bug reports for stuff like this, but it's DEFINITELY worth it!!!

    I've had hundreds of bugs fixed in the past, and it's all because I took half an hour or so to figure out exactly the steps to produce a bug. It's not easy and sometimes you find more bugs while writing a report for something else... but it's SO worth it!!!

    If things like the image viewer are borked, it may be your configs. Try deleting all your configs (it will remove your menu setups and plugins, but it can seem to fix these problems sometimes).

    Good luck though, I hope you find a way forward.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Rid View Post
    What "image viewer?" Image viewing should work fine in LW11. And you should be able to run your PFX in LW11 and load the caches into LW2018. I recently used LW11 for several PFX shots because it is the last version we had where voxels worked with moblur.
    Yeah, this one has me mystified too. I've been using LW11 since it came out, and it's been great, but this month, when I press F9 to render, the usual Image Viewer appears but the image is missing and Layout just completely freezes, even with an empty scene. It's kind of what started this journey through versions 2015, 2018 and 2020, as I wasn't really expecting to get support for LW11 after all these years. I'm also seeing the image view freeze occasionally in 2018, and 2020 layout freezes when I scrub the timeline with an image sequence as the backdrop, which 2018 doesn't do, so I'm just really exhausted trying to find a version that works with the fewest new bugs. I didn't even know about the moblur issue as well.

    Good tip about importing the caches, I hadn't thought of that. However, I'm not sure my LW2018 scenes will be backward compatible with 11. I can try, though. EDIT: I see the Export option for 9.5. Nice.
    Last edited by DiscoBurgess; 07-29-2020 at 06:38 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    Definitely tricky working out bug reports for stuff like this, but it's DEFINITELY worth it!!!

    I've had hundreds of bugs fixed in the past, and it's all because I took half an hour or so to figure out exactly the steps to produce a bug. It's not easy and sometimes you find more bugs while writing a report for something else... but it's SO worth it!!!

    If things like the image viewer are borked, it may be your configs. Try deleting all your configs (it will remove your menu setups and plugins, but it can seem to fix these problems sometimes).

    Good luck though, I hope you find a way forward.
    I totally agree about bugfixes, and I generally do submit them for software I use, including LW in the past. I quite enjoy investigating a problem that way. My concern here is that I've hit a big clump of them, and it's starting to make me feel like this is going to be a losing battle. I'm honestly not trying to make this into a gripe thread, but I'm facing several showstopping issues across multiple versions, all on this one project.

    LW11 image view freeze: Easy to reproduce, but I must assume this is related to a driver update or something since LW11 has been fine for years. -- I cleared the configs as you suggested and holy mackerel it worked! This is a huge relief as losing LW11 was like having my go-to toolbox stolen. Thank you for this suggestion!
    LW2018 occasional freeze: Unable to reproduce, and unlikely to be fixed since 2020 is the current version.
    LW2018 particle emission on keyframe does not work reliably: Unable to reproduce, seems to be intermittent
    LW2018 particle emission rate is unreliable, seemingly switching between per frame and per second after a while of working: Unable to reproduce, seems to be intermittent
    LW2018 particle collision not working: Able to reproduce, but broken differently in 2020
    LW2020 particle collision not working: Able to reproduce, I will submit a bug report for this
    LW2020 layout freezes when a move the timeline slider with an image sequence as a backdrop: Intermittently able to reproduce in a test scene, can always reproduce in a specific large scene

    I will submit the 2020 bugs I've found so far, because I think I can make solid repro cases for them, but this list doesn't give me confidence that there isn't much more bug misery lurking in 2020, bearing in mind I only ran it for about 15 minutes. Thanks to you, LW11.6.3 is working again , so I'm going to see if I can backport my projects and make the whole thing there. I'll check in with 2020 later in the year, I guess!
    Last edited by DiscoBurgess; 07-29-2020 at 06:39 AM.

  14. #14
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBurgess View Post
    I totally agree about bugfixes, and I generally do submit them for software I use, including LW in the past. I quite enjoy investigating a problem that way. My concern here is that I've hit a big clump of them, and it's starting to make me feel like this is going to be a losing battle. I'm honestly not trying to make this into a gripe thread, but I'm facing several showstopping issues across multiple versions, all on this one project.

    LW11 image view freeze: Easy to reproduce, but I must assume this is related to a driver update or something since LW11 has been fine for years. -- I cleared the configs as you suggested and holy mackerel it worked! This is a huge relief as losing LW11 was like having my go-to toolbox stolen. Thank you for this suggestion!
    LW2018 occasional freeze: Unable to reproduce, and unlikely to be fixed since 2020 is the current version.
    LW2018 particle emission on keyframe does not work reliably: Unable to reproduce, seems to be intermittent
    LW2018 particle emission rate is unreliable, seemingly switching between per frame and per second after a while of working: Unable to reproduce, seems to be intermittent
    LW2018 particle collision not working: Able to reproduce, but broken differently in 2020
    LW2020 particle collision not working: Able to reproduce, I will submit a bug report for this
    LW2020 layout freezes when a move the timeline slider with an image sequence as a backdrop: Intermittently able to reproduce in a test scene, can always reproduce in a specific large scene

    I will submit the 2020 bugs I've found so far, because I think I can make solid repro cases for them, but this list doesn't give me confidence that there isn't much more bug misery lurking in 2020, bearing in mind I only ran it for about 15 minutes. Thanks to you, LW11.6.3 is working again , so I'm going to see if I can backport my projects and make the whole thing there. I'll check in with 2020 later in the year, I guess!

    This is interesting, but hopefully they can fix them.
    LW2018 occasional freeze: Unable to reproduce, and unlikely to be fixed since 2020 is the current version. This might be the hub. I basically turned it off since 2018, it ruins everything Although it's fixed in 2020 i think.

    Great that the configs thing worked... it works on a surprising amount of weird crashers. I think the configs get corrupted somehow, which then starts throwing things off.
    Sometimes it can be simple things like image filters crashing, or even just turning on VPR. I tend to ditch my configs, just before I bug report, to make sure it's not the config issue.

    Anyway, I really hope you can continue to use LW, as frustrating as it can be... it's still a cool tool to use
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  15. #15
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    The hub is still not working in Windows 10, sometimes does, mostly does not. For me modeler is getting flakier with each new release from 2018 onwards. I seem to have many crash on exit now with modeler, not repeatable but often, happens with a model loaded and cleared or not loaded at all. Deleted all configs, reinstalled, tried everything but its still there.

    Frankly is ridiculous that now we are still talking about problems that have been there for years. Disabling hub, trashing configs, oh come on.

    Also, the excuses for it are getting tiresome now.
    Last edited by JohnMarchant; 07-29-2020 at 03:18 PM.
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