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Thread: Crime scene forensic showcase with Lightwave or X- Olof Palme murder Not solved.

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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Crime scene forensic showcase with Lightwave or X- Olof Palme murder Not solved.

    Hi folks,

    Lately Ivé been a little more interested at looking at the Swedish Prime Minister -Olof Palme murder case.
    Itīs been with most of us Swedes for decades since 1986.
    Let me give a little back history to why I am a bit curious of all this..

    Just recently the prosecutor decided to end one of the largest Police investigations ever, with the motiviation that their prime suspect is dead, and they can not get "around" that person.
    The prosecutor made sure to state that he isnīt the court, and they can not for certain point at this person as the definite murderer.

    Now..all that was presented was very thin and lacking in evidence, and just made the hole thing blossom again to even more speculations, and some private investigators and many people believe there is another person that truly is the killer, as well as I do.

    Now ..My father was a criminal inspector here in stockholm at the time of the murder, he was however working part time in the eco crime division, but many yeas before that ..he was actually in charge of murder cases here in stockholm as chief inspector.

    At the day of the murder, he called in and declared he was available if needed, they however declined that offer..it wasnīt needed they said, some days after that..my father found out that the hole eco division was called in, but not him, it could have been a case of my father being part time..but anyway strange since he in fact had been in charge of murder investigations as a chief, while the inspector taking charge for the palme murder..had never been investigating any murder at all in his career.
    My father of couse had his own theoryīs..which I do not buy in to though, but I can agree on that as my father said..it was a disaster in terms of how police should act on the murder site.

    That is just a little back history of why I felt it all has been odd.
    Anyway..the prosecutors pointing out of a certain person just doesnīt add up, but there is another person that I feel seem to have very incriminating things around him, which is mostly indicating evidence, but not true evidence with full bearing.

    1. This person had a Licensed 357 magnum which is allegedly the type that killed palme, this weapon he could now show for the police cause he said it was sold to some unknown person, the weapon has never been found.
    2. This person has a very striking similarity to a sketch by a female artist ..who witnessed a person around 10 minutes after the shooting, around 6 minutes walking distance away from the murder site, and in the same direction the murderer allegedly run towards.
    3. This person if we look at movitation theories, would lost millions due to palmes decision on raising taxes on stocks...allegedly this person lost millions the very morning the same day palme was killed
    4. This person had an apartment nearby the Grand theater, were Palme initially were watching a movie, then walked down the street just before the killing.
    5. This person..many years later, his brother was worried an called the police because he hadnīt heard from his brother for quite a while, once the police knocked on to this suspect persons apartment..they were shouting out "open up.. itīs the police", they heard a shot..and he was found dead by suicide.
    6. (Killing yourself even if you had done a minor offence seems very unlikely, which may indicate towards this person has done something really nasty)
    7. And for me that isnīt unlikely that he may have felt they now must be on to him, assuming he did the palme killing.




    now..the person that now finally has been pointed out as the most likely killer ( SE ) doesnīt have any resemblence with Any of the drawings made by witnesses, and he himself called in the day after..stating that the signs was of him, but he was there just behind as a witness, and also running away in the direction of the murder and where police allegedly run at.
    There is also a witness stating very clearly that this (SE) in fact arrived to the murder scene a couple of minutes after palme was shot.

    So this just triggered me to see if I could use Lightwave to put the victom, witnesses, potential killers within a time range in a Lightwave scene? or if there are other tools for describing a case in a timeline that can be followed interactively?

    So do you guys have any ideas, tips ..if I where to set it up in a 3D software?

    In this initial state..I am more concerned on getting time right and position of witnesses, people being around the area and the actions, so initially it will be enough with setting up dummy figures that really doesnīt have to animate in terms of walk cycles, not in the beginning, but it should be done so you can witness the scene in full 3D.

    itīs just a little seed to an eventual project, I havenīt actually seen any good 3D presentation of it all, most is poorly showcased I think.
    I may have to extract some street data maps, so the proper scale is important with distance especially and time of the people involved.
    The time range I would need to deal with for the scene would be within an hour...I think.

    If this by the prosecutor alleged most highest suspect (SE) would be the killer, heīs got to be one of the most "coldest" killer in a murder case, calling in and manipulation himself as a witness echo, instead of the actual murderer, that canīt of course be ruled out..but together with other witnesses and other factors, it seems highly unlikely rather than he actually was there behind as a witness, a very high risc to take to definetly introduce himself as being there on the murder scene...with all that comes with a hearing.

    The one I believe as prime suspect, also had a strong Palme hate declared, he was reported to have had shot with his gun toward his tv some time before the killing to the police, but that was left without notice.
    And as I said before, the same day of the killing, the sales tax had been raised..and in one day he went to personal bancrupcy, the similarity from the witness drawing 6 minutes of distance and 10 minutes approximation from the witness..and to that of his passport image 10 years later from the killing date...is just striking, especially on the mouth..and given it would most likely be even more close in resemblence had a mugshot been taken at the time, it never was.
    And the gun, itīs the only Registred 357 gun they havenīt been able to test.
    The person had no alibi for the evening of the murder either.

  2. #2
    Registered User gdkeast's Avatar
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    Perhaps you are looking for some type of pre-viz software application? Perhaps start with a sketch or storyboard artist, then see if a 3D animation is necessary to "recreate" the scene. It seems like what you are describing is not much different from creating a scene from a script. But it is an interesting story!

    http://www.muvizu.com/
    This software, although cartoonish, can be used for pre-viz.
    Last edited by gdkeast; 06-26-2020 at 12:20 AM.

  3. #3
    pass:sword OFF's Avatar
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    It is not a matter of who shot, but the matter is who was behind this murder. A killer is usually a mercenary or someone who has been brainwashed. He is only a tool. Much more important is what was behind this murder - and the activity of O. Palme as a politician answers this question. He was actually the last supporter of socialism from the heads of capitalist countries. And his plans did not appeal to many in the West. So what is more important what ideals of O. Palme made him a target for killers, than who shot.
    So I strongly doubt the usefulness of visualizing this murder.
    But if there is a desire to make this scene, I would make an animation of the characters in separate scenes and bake it in a MDD files.

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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdkeast View Post
    Perhaps you are looking for some type of pre-viz software application? Perhaps start with a sketch or storyboard artist, then see if a 3D animation is necessary to "recreate" the scene. It seems like what you are describing is not much different from creating a scene from a script. But it is an interesting story!

    http://www.muvizu.com/
    This software, although cartoonish, can be used for pre-viz.
    For my interest, a full timeline is crucial and to be able to follow in that real time, initially just overseight top view, but eventually fully in the environment with full scale on distances.
    The by prosecutor alleged murderer did his stamp out time from his job at a certain time, and I would have to investigate how far from the stamp clock and the way he walked and how long time that took, the time range could be within 1-2 minutes when palme shot, so basicly he stamped out..and happened to run in to palme and then shot him, highly unlikely in my opinion, that murder also shows up on a photo when the ambulance is there..so he would have done this after his job, in a short it run around the area, then show up some minutes again to watch the aftermath..just doesnīt make sense.


    So setting up frames within that timescale of 30 minutes or less or divide the scene in two scenes, and then set a walking rate speed on some markers will have to do, this has to be done for all 30 witnesses I think it is.

  5. #5
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OFF View Post
    It is not a matter of who shot, but the matter is who was behind this murder. A killer is usually a mercenary or someone who has been brainwashed. He is only a tool. Much more important is what was behind this murder - and the activity of O. Palme as a politician answers this question. He was actually the last supporter of socialism from the heads of capitalist countries. And his plans did not appeal to many in the West. So what is more important what ideals of O. Palme made him a target for killers, than who shot.
    So I strongly doubt the usefulness of visualizing this murder.
    But if there is a desire to make this scene, I would make an animation of the characters in separate scenes and bake it in a MDD files.
    Itīs definitely a matter of who shot, as well as any collaborators.
    There are lonely mad killers as well in history, not necessary hired guns.
    We had a murder on our foreign minister (Anna Lind) in a city mall, she was stabbed to death and the murderer was actually caught, she was in the schooling of taking over to be Swedens first female prime minister.

    The alleged, convicted Christer Petersson was a very gifted actor, very intelligent (130IQ) with an extreme memory..he was expelled from acting acedemy, with som notes from the principle that he was the most gifted student actor they had seen, but he had already started to steal from collegues and using drugs.
    Since then his life was full off abuse, drinking and drugs, in later years he said..maybe hi killed palme(due to sleeping insomnia or something..brain damage due to his abuse), but also denied it strongly when it was brought up..he also said himself a couple of times, the money he got from media was the only income he had, and since he already had been declared not guilty in the appeal court, he could safely play around with this notion..and get money for drugs.
    This Christer Petersson was never recognized by Lisbet Palme in the first line ups.

    As I said before the new alleged murder, S.E I believe isnīt guilty..and he really should have been put out of the suspects, otherwise I dare to say it is slander of the deceased, by visualising his movements in a timeline, that could help describe how
    ridiculous it would be to point out him as the murderer.

    And You assume that it is a conspiracy with more than one to set the murder up, it isnīt necessary the case..but I myself also thought this couldnīt be a one mad man hit, initially I thought the October Surprise group (iran contras) had something to do with it, large stakes with Bofors smuggling weapons to aid in the release of the U.S hostages, if Palme was about to reveal and stop this..it would have impacted that trade...which eventually seem to have helped getting Ronald Reagan elected.

    Later I more and more leaned towards southafrican agents, since palme aided ANC with money from Russia(I think)

    But when I looked in to another possible single mad man C.A ..I just find how strikingly odd the circumstances are, he lived 15 away, he said he had the flue before, during and after the murder 3 days, but that alibi isnīt correct..relatives states something else, so he probably lied there.
    This C.A had a 357 Magnum, the only registred Magnum that hasnīt been found and tested ballisticly, he didnīt reply on two callings for turning the gun in, then they took him in for hearing, and he said he sold it to some drug user.
    This C.A ..may have appeared 10 minutes away in distance from the murder scen and in the same direction where the killer was said to have runned towards, and artist made a drawing that has some features that are very resembling.
    This C.A just happened to shot himself with a rifle, when the police arrived to his apartment, his brother was worried since he hadnīt heard from him for a while and thus called the police, the police knocke on the door, and shouted"open up..it is the police"
    The police then heard a shot, and found him dead..( extremely odd and he must have been afraid of spending time behind bars for some reason, not even waiting for what it could be..or a trial, and he had been in hearing before, so he knew they had their eyes on him)
    This C.A lost a fortune the day palme was killed, palme wanted to raise the taxes on the stock sales.
    This C.A was reported to have shot in to his tv, when palme was on the tv set some time before the murder, though I am not sure about the whole story about that.
    This C.A was also by FBI considered as one of the foremost possible murderers according to a profile they did, he was also violent and had abused people before.

    So what I most would like to do, that is to set this up to compare these two murder (alleged) guys, and try to reveal a picture of what is most likely.
    Both guys are dead, and one should not point them out really unless really sure..otherwise it is a slander of deceased, the prosecutor had no issues with that though, in fact he said.."objectively it is a slander of Deceased"
    But he also said the common interest outweighted that, and he thought he had probable cause to suspect this S.E, even though he was also aware of that it would probably not stick up in court..had he been alive, they would at least brought him in and would have a search warrent etc.
    Personally I do not think they have enough on him to point him out as the foremost suspect.

  6. #6
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Unless you have video/photo records of people interacting, a 3D replica may be unlikely to add to anyone's understanding. It may also distract from actual events.

    A 3D reenactment derived from a video (or still photo) recorded scene lets an audience explore it from other points of view. It is even better if an inquisitive individual in the audience has the power to navigate the scene. This could be done by exporting 3D content from Lightwave to WebGL or a game engine (Unreal/Unity).
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  7. #7

    ...but I can agree on that as my father said... it was a disaster in terms of how police should act on the murder site.
    ...this is a political discussion, so beware, but yes, haven't heard 1 person claiming the Swedish investigation wasn't a disaster.



    The alleged, convicted [in 1989] Christer Pettersson was a very gifted actor, very intelligent (130IQ) with an extreme memory..he was expelled from acting academy, with some notes from the principle that he was the most gifted student actor they had seen, but he had already started to steal from colleagues and using drugs.
    Wow! didn't know.
    ...it unfortunately belongs to the story that in 1970, Petterson killed a man in a street of Stockholm, seemingly without any provocation. [wiki]
    he also had suffered from a head injury, and never fully recovered.


    8. (Killing yourself even if you had done a minor offense seems very unlikely, which may indicate towards this person has done something really nasty)
    most of those sad cases have little to do with guilt, 99% are simply tired of life, unstable or not.

    This could be done by exporting 3D content from LightWave to WebGL or a game engine (Unreal/Unity).
    yes, i was thinking along those lines also.
    ...i've come to realize that i'm one of the few Pro-Unity guys, less Unreal.

    Cool! 
    ...unfortunately no FBX anim export...

    "Allowing animation to be exported and used in other packages goes against Muvizu's ethos. I'm not saying that it'll never do it, but it's certainly not something we're looking to add at the moment."

    so, just a heads up there.
    Last edited by erikals; 06-27-2020 at 05:48 AM.
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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    Unless you have video/photo records of people interacting, a 3D replica may be unlikely to add to anyone's understanding. It may also distract from actual events.

    A 3D reenactment derived from a video (or still photo) recorded scene lets an audience explore it from other points of view. It is even better if an inquisitive individual in the audience has the power to navigate the scene. This could be done by exporting 3D content from Lightwave to WebGL or a game engine (Unreal/Unity).
    I disagree..on contrary.there has been made numerous video reconstructions, and none of them can present the timeline in sync for each minutes with a proper overview, it rather gets very confusing.
    Agree a bit about the last part though.

    Initially the most important thing isnīt to see the figures closeness to the actual person, but the location, environment and movement of witnesses and the alleged murderer., and to to get the speed of the movement as correct as possible, later
    perhaps a description with more proper movement on how the killer is said to have for his styled walk, run, and movements etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    ...this is a political discussion, so beware, but yes, haven't heard 1 person claiming the Swedish investigation wasn't a disaster.




    Wow! didn't know.
    ...it unfortunately belongs to the story that in 1970, Petterson killed a man in a street of Stockholm, seemingly without any provocation. [wiki]
    he also had suffered from a head injury, and never fully recovered.



    most of those sad cases have little to do with guilt, 99% are simply tired of life, unstable or not.


    yes, i was thinking along those lines also.
    ...i've come to realize that i'm one of the few Pro-Unity guys, less Unreal.


    Cool! 
    ...unfortunately no FBX anim export...

    "Allowing animation to be exported and used in other packages goes against Muvizu's ethos. I'm not saying that it'll never do it, but it's certainly not something we're looking to add at the moment."

    so, just a heads up there.
    No not really a political discussion, especially not as to what you qoute me for in regards to police actions.
    It touches on politics if you go in to certain motives, but the discussion isnīt primarely a discussion about politics or have that as a focus.

  9. #9
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    Wow! didn't know.
    ...it unfortunately belongs to the story that in 1970, Petterson killed a man in a street of Stockholm, seemingly without any provocation. [wiki]
    he also had suffered from a head injury, and never fully recovered.

    most of those sad cases have little to do with guilt, 99% are simply tired of life, unstable or not.

    .
    As for the sad cases of suiced, well normally, but looking at the bigger picture..and how often a person shoots himself just when the police knocks on your doors and says open up itīs the police, and that the depression would just take a decisions there on the spot the same seconds, seems very unlikely.

    Given the other circumstances around C.A and the events, sort of is a HUGE indicator to something else, though we can for now only speculate, and perhaps will never now..unless the gun is found in proximity to his whereabouts and the isotops of remaining bullets could tell something, I think his apartment was renovated almost from scratch..long before police could check something, but there may still be a chance that he has dumped the gun somewhere..and if some bullets still is in the chamber, the isotop should be able to be retreived, but then you would of course need to connect it to the proximity of CA, or the registred license number.


    As for Christer Petterson, I do not believe he did it..he had temper and some comments towards journalists or advocates are spot on humiliating for the journalists or the advocate, hereīs a scene where the Laywer ask Christer Petersson why he lied around some events, Christer Petterson getīs angry..and starts to say, what he h...donīt accuse me with that kind of c..donīt have that tone against me, just watch yourself..here you call me a lier...(the lawyer then said..I didnīt call you a lier) which was funny because that was just what he said and what made Christer Petterson angry, and christer pointed out..but you just called me a lier.

    00:4 in the clip, where the lawyer ask, "your alibi is 100% broken..so why did you lie?" Christer Raises his arm and goes almost berserk, donīt talk that sh...donīt come here with an agressive provocative tone agains me.
    This wasnīt any court hearing, just a studio tv hearing to bring clarity on the events, which Christer Petterson was willing to participate in.
    I think is extreme reaction is both legitimate and understandable, this wasnīt a court..and you would assume the questions should no be in the form of pressing prosecuter style .."why did you lie"
    Rather than ..the alibi seem to not make sense and describe why.

    And for the record, he was finally declare as a free man an not guilty in the appeal courts, at least nothing that could prove him to be the killer without a reasonable doubt.
    And then we now have this S.E person..also called the scandiaman (the insurance company house was on the same street and he worked overtime quite often there as a graphic designer)
    I donīt believe for a second he has done it either.

    I wonder how my father would have acted and what part he could have played as a police detective, though he at the moment was placed on economic crime route, he many years earlier was a chief inspector for
    homocid investigations.
    My father was the only one not called in to duty on his office, he did call in but they said they had enough..in hindsight they could have used his experience and not put anyone in charge that never had investigated any homicide
    Case.



  10. #10

    We'll never know,

    as for S.E. the conclusion from people in the news over here were >

    "That's it ?... That's all they got ?..."
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  11. #11
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    We'll never know,

    as for S.E. the conclusion from people in the news over here were >

    "That's it ?... That's all they got ?..."
    That is presumptions on to something you really donīt know
    What we do know..is that it is very unlikely..but not impossible that we could get more data that supports who killed Palme, but the gun is of course a crucial one, and since the bullets seem to be impossible to match by
    ballistic testing, isotopes seem to be the only way..just finding the gun without any bullets would be extremely hard to match to the killing..even if it will be highly suspecious depending on where it may be found.

    As for international response on the reveal, "thatīs it"
    Yes..I am utterly convinced that the prosecutor had an agenda to simply shut down the investigation, murder prescribation was removed some years ago..and some people in this juridicitional system or politics most likely have made it clear..if there is
    not trace left to proper follow, shut the investigation down..it cost to much in money and resources.

    That is also sort of what the prosecutor stated himself between the lines, and I think he was on the case too short time and when he was appointed ..he directly said he was convinced to solve it, right there and then I was quite clear on that he would just shut it down without a proper solution.

    A lawyer, and also a person that sat in the socialdemocratic party, said in the news that the relatives of this S.E ...should not try and suing the prosecutor office for slander of deceased, they would not get any success from that.
    But I am not so sure, at least not in the purest juridictional sense, but from what may transpire based on attacking a prosecuting office and the power they have behind them..it may be doomed, if not the court system can stand honestly non partially.

    S.E...stamping out from his job..maybe a minute before the killing, ran in to palme from behind and then..(if he was the killer and after the shot) run away...and then show up again on photo on the killing scene? and despite witnesses stating he arrived after the killing also, so everyone must have been tricked here, witnesses, police, media etc by one of the cold ice killers in history.


    23:19 S.E mentioned he stamped out from work, which is verified by the scandia office, but the clock also was wrong as in to late, it should have been 23:20
    (correction, it was the other way around, the clock was to fast and the true stamp out should be 23:19)
    The shots that killed palme is estimated to have been around 23:21
    S.E returns to the Scandia house 23:40 a bit chocked and stating the palme has been shot to the guards.

    Now what I would like to know..that is when the photo is taking where we can see S.E standing nearby the killing site just after the murder, I donīt have the exact time on that.
    S.E said that they never took notice of his witness testimony when he was on sight, and obviously he seemed to have been there anyway..as seen on the photo, so the police missing to do their job that sort of could
    impact the prosecutors thought of, he wasnīt there and therefor lies, S.E had also written notes to investigators..snarking them off because they didnīt believe he ever was on the sight..that is why he was disregarded in a promemoria.

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