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Thread: LW 2019.1.5 vs LW 2020 render time comparison

  1. #61
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    The reason this was changed, was so we didn't have the raytrace and env light ball ache changing PER MATERIAL!
    Tonnes of users never even realised, even to this day, that if you used the env light, you HAD to change ALL material's tracing to "raytrace only" rather than raytrace and backdrop.

    I am really glad they made this change. If you want to change the backdrop brightness separately from the light, then add an env light that is visible to backdrop, but doesn't affect specular or diffuse. There you go.
    Nope, a global "default material" template pref would have been much more desirable, for multiple reasons: It would have actually "solved" the default material issue (this didn't), it wouldn't have reduced LW functionality, nor broken existing content.

    For as much as remaining users swear by the consistency of workflow, similarity to physical reality w.r.t. staging & lighting, and "directness" of the UX, hiding background management behind a light is the opposite of all of those. It isn't consistent with existing workflow at ALL, it isn't remotely similar to physical staging/lighting reality and becomes an epic mess with multiple background mattes, BTW (env lights don't layer/mask in the same way backgrounds were able to do), and the whole bit about turning off "affect specular"+"affect diffuse" routinely on a LIGHT is just nonsensical, poor UX.

    This is a horrible solution to a problem far better solved with a single "default material" pref template, which LW still desperately needs regardless!! Users who need refl/refr+spherical still need to change every material, as do users who primarily use Cel shading model materials, etc. There are still lots of cases where users need something other than the NT-declared "default material settings" and wind up having to change every single material as a result, and their answer here did nothing to help those other users.

    What this change did do, that a global default material template pref wouldn't do, is create issues for most existing LW2018+ content (as well as prior content converted for LW2018+). I see nothing worth cheering about there. All for a change that didn't even eradicate the issue it was ostensibly "fixing" (the need for per-material changes -- BTW, there was a third setting there, "backdrop only" which no longer has any functional equivalent AT ALL, thus LW lost useful functionality).

    Meanwhile, as they pursued creating this largely unnecessary sweeping change / compatibility quagmire, the version shipped with multiple other lights severely broken (as well as other feature systems). Even just making materials "raytrace only" by default would have been a better solution than this one, and incurred much less effort (better spent fixing broken critical functionality instead).

    Epic fail.
    Last edited by jwiede; 05-17-2020 at 12:19 PM.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  2. #62
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    agreed. let’s hope someone reads and corrects the error in the next patch.

    someone in the lw dev team needs to push for some of matt’s time to clean things up
    Last edited by gar26lw; 05-17-2020 at 11:34 AM.

  3. #63
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    I for one don’t particularly like the way backdrops+lights+gi is handled in lw2018-2019. It is confusing and weird. I think moving that junk into a single environment light setup is cleaner and better and was a good decision. That’s just my 2cents.

  4. #64
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    What this change did do, that a global default material template pref wouldn't do, is create issues for most existing LW2018+ content (as well as prior content converted for LW2018+).
    And just to give an example of what I mean: ContentDir "lightwave_2015_content_20141215" is LW2015-provided content, subdirectory was "2015_New_Features/ImportanceSampling/Mecha_IS". Scene was "MechaImportanceSampling_MonteCarlo.lws". For both LW2019.1.5 and LW2020 allowed each to convert into a clean new scene, then did a one-frame render. Here are the results:

    2019.1.5:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2019_1_5_FR.png 
Views:	97 
Size:	1.27 MB 
ID:	147869

    2020(.0):
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2020_FR.png 
Views:	72 
Size:	2.7 KB 
ID:	147868

    So, yeah, great scene "conversion", thanks LW2020. Not only did LW2020 not convert the background into anything it could use, but it messed up the scene's area light as well somehow. Clearly a lot of thought was put into comprehensively handling this sweeping environmental & UX change they forced on everyone.

    Waiting for a patch just to get a "fundamentally-operable 3D program" isn't even remotely acceptable for a commercially-sold product. The product shouldn't have ever been released with this many fundamental systems in such severely broken states. This is inexcusably poor quality for a commercially-sold software product.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  5. #65
    Registered User Marty3DGuru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    I for one don’t particularly like the way backdrops+lights+gi is handled in lw2018-2019. It is confusing and weird. I think moving that junk into a single environment light setup is cleaner and better and was a good decision. That’s just my 2cents.
    Totally agree. It was always confusing as to what affected what or was not affecting the other. Did the environment backdrop act as just a vanity piece, did the lighting just affect ambience or was it affecting the specular reflections. Was it acting alone or was it then multiplied on top of the directional lighting also to blow things out. If I want pure IBL did I just need a directional light create a shadow cast and then did this add to the total lighting on top and affect the specular reflections, all these sorts of things.
    Last edited by Marty3DGuru; 05-17-2020 at 02:25 PM.
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  6. #66
    Registered User Marty3DGuru's Avatar
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    Just stop harping on at the negatives. In hindsight many moaned about Core this and that, they wimped out didn't want to change the workflow drastically and played safe.

    How many people keep saying they want the old shading system or why couldn't they just keep things as they were. I don't like using nodes they are hard work, so hard to understand, on and on I keep hearing this sort of wanting to stay static and keep things as they are but yet then they say no progress is made by the LW team and they don't listen.

    If a render engine has changed then you have to change your shader construction, people know this yet sound so surprised an old scene doesn't work. If you reuse assets from time to time and have to change the shading model, then so be it, do you want progress or not?

    The new render engine is faster and easier to setup for me. I tested 3 render engines MODO, V-Ray and then LW. Which render engine did I get the best looking result from and in the shortest time. LW.
    'LW CAN IF YOU CAN BE ARSED TO TRY HARDER'

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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    ....This is a horrible solution to a problem far better solved with a single "default material" pref template, which LW still desperately needs regardless!! Users who need refl/refr+spherical still need to change every material, as do users who primarily use Cel shading model materials, etc. There are still lots of cases where users need something other than the NT-declared "default material settings" and wind up having to change every single material as a result, and their answer here did nothing to help those other users....
    Hi,
    a single "default material" preferences template (what would be nice anyway) would not solve the whole issue: in LW19 you also have to deactived Sample Backdrop in the GI tab of Render Properties too.

    It was time to clean up that mess. You always can (and should) discuss the way NT did it.
    One thing that is bad (in my opinion) is that a backdrop that is set in the usual way via Backdrop tab is not visable for the camera by default (I made a feature request about this, also make one to give it more weight).

    To concentrate the light settings in one place (Environment Light settings) works fine for me.
    In LW19 the MIS sampling for lights is more accurate than the GI Backdrop Sampling (it works different) what leads to more noise in renders. Therefore it seems logical to delete the GI variant.
    Finally, in LW2020 you can have different backdrops to lit a scene at once (more Environment Lights).

    ciao
    Thomas
    Web: www.dieleinwandhelden.com

    I use two pieces of the three-piece application with mocap module.

  8. #68
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Nope, a global "default material" template pref would have been much more desirable, for multiple reasons: It would have actually "solved" the default material issue (this didn't), it wouldn't have reduced LW functionality, nor broken existing content.

    For as much as remaining users swear by the consistency of workflow, similarity to physical reality w.r.t. staging & lighting, and "directness" of the UX, hiding background management behind a light is the opposite of all of those. It isn't consistent with existing workflow at ALL, it isn't remotely similar to physical staging/lighting reality and becomes an epic mess with multiple background mattes, BTW (env lights don't layer/mask in the same way backgrounds were able to do), and the whole bit about turning off "affect specular"+"affect diffuse" routinely on a LIGHT is just nonsensical, poor UX.

    This is a horrible solution to a problem far better solved with a single "default material" pref template, which LW still desperately needs regardless!! Users who need refl/refr+spherical still need to change every material, as do users who primarily use Cel shading model materials, etc. There are still lots of cases where users need something other than the NT-declared "default material settings" and wind up having to change every single material as a result, and their answer here did nothing to help those other users.

    What this change did do, that a global default material template pref wouldn't do, is create issues for most existing LW2018+ content (as well as prior content converted for LW2018+). I see nothing worth cheering about there. All for a change that didn't even eradicate the issue it was ostensibly "fixing" (the need for per-material changes -- BTW, there was a third setting there, "backdrop only" which no longer has any functional equivalent AT ALL, thus LW lost useful functionality).

    Meanwhile, as they pursued creating this largely unnecessary sweeping change / compatibility quagmire, the version shipped with multiple other lights severely broken (as well as other feature systems). Even just making materials "raytrace only" by default would have been a better solution than this one, and incurred much less effort (better spent fixing broken critical functionality instead).

    Epic fail.
    I'll politely, but firmly, disagree!
    LairdSquared | 3D Design & Animation

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  9. #69
    I did a similar comparison with the Dragons-Area-Light scene. I loaded the scene into 2020 and saved it there for this test. I then rendered the scene via the Network Render Controller using the same rendering node, once with the 2019.1.5 node running and once with the 2020.0.0 node running. The 2019 node completed the frame 15 seconds ahead of the 2020 node. Here were the results.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Dragon-NRC-2019-2020-Render-Comparison.jpg 
Views:	63 
Size:	162.1 KB 
ID:	147916Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Dragons-Area-Light-2019_001.png 
Views:	92 
Size:	2.75 MB 
ID:	147917Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Dragons-Area-Light-2020_001.png 
Views:	93 
Size:	2.62 MB 
ID:	147918

    I know the dramatic difference in rendered image is due to lighting/environmental changes in 2020 already noted here and updates to SSS. Regarding the rendering times, I'm seeing similar results in other testing with 2020 taking a bit longer.

  10. #70
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    I've tried one of my own scenes in both 2019 and 2020 and 2020 is slower rendering. The render bug I reported recently has been fixed internally and I got a reply today that the patch is imminent.

  11. #71
    Super Member Qexit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genesis1 View Post
    I've tried one of my own scenes in both 2019 and 2020 and 2020 is slower rendering. The render bug I reported recently has been fixed internally and I got a reply today that the patch is imminent.
    LW 2020.0.1 was released a couple of hours ago with a huge stack of bug fixes:

    https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...ot-released%21

    Blog post on the release:

    https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2020/05...-available-now

    List of changes/bug fixes:

    http://static.lightwave3d.com/downlo...g_20200522.txt

    and some important info about LScript:

    https://blog.lightwave3d.com/2020/05...3d-depreciated
    Last edited by Qexit; 05-26-2020 at 04:30 PM.
    Kevin F Stubbs

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  12. #72
    pass:sword OFF's Avatar
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    Glad to see such a fast and great result on bug fixes!
    OGL is almost as fast as in LW2019 (-1 fps on Dinosaur walk scene test).

    Updated Optix to 6.5.0. - As far as I know, Cicles and Octane are now working on version 7 of Optix, which as I understand is mainly characterized by the ability to use the RTX cores of the Nvidia cards. But also on the previous version of Optix Cicles and Octane offered the opportunity to work with Denoiser on animation projects. Will this feature be available to LW users in the future?

  13. #73
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    No more LScript?

    In that case I hope there will be a pose/animation library in LW2021, to replace mine, otherwise I will have no reason to upgrade anymore.
    Last edited by vncnt; 05-27-2020 at 01:52 AM.
    Download my free Legato plugin for CA in LightWave
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  14. #74
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Lscript will still be there, I very much doubt they'll tear it out in the very next release.

    I always thought you could access any lscript function using Python, is this ml it the case?
    LairdSquared | 3D Design & Animation

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  15. #75
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Problem is that I don't want to spend any more time on programming or transcoding 55.000 lines of code for this.

    I want to focus on character animation before I die.

    And nobody does that without a fast and effective pose and motion library, or an effective Copy/Paste feature, or an external Transfer function (scene file nesting).
    Download my free Legato plugin for CA in LightWave
    Pose- and Motion Libraries, tools to structure your story/poses/performances, X-sheet I/O, audio analysis, hotspot item selection, ...

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