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Thread: Wda clouds and vdb

  1. #31
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    Yes, as of now, there is no way really to get the Blender Cloud quality in LightWave,

    as far as i know.
    And I think I could push that a little bit more in blender with light path node outputs and some other curve and maths node in the proper channel to emulate a bit more of that powder darkness effect, depends on time I have and I would have to start with lower bounces and lower vdb samples in order to get GPU preview fast enough while tweaking, you need that almost realtime respons while tweaking, not render and wait for 20 minutes, change a slight number, re-render etc..that is where GPU is important for the previews, had Lightwave had the same option, it would have made it easier as well to adress this, while not entirely realisticly possible...but better renders.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nez View Post
    you have native karma renderer now integrated in houdini. Full GPU. Should ease things up substantially.
    As long as that is available in the apprentice version as well? I will check the newer versions, currently a bit older apprentice version.
    If itīs not within the apprentice version? then it will not help out though.
    So are you aware if it is included?

    Edit...on my check, seems karma isnīt ready for GPU according to this, unless this information is old?
    https://www.sidefx.com/faq/karma/

    And a lot of other things missing.

    Edit..yep, seem to be available in the Apprentice version as well, have to check up on how the status is with GPU and other stuff though..
    https://www.sidefx.com/faq/question/...tice-licenses/

  2. #32
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Some progress I think on the Lightwave WDAS cloud rendering, been working the whole day with blender and setting things up, love the multiple scattering, while the lightwave scattering isnīt as nice.
    But with some scattering gradients and also the help of absorbtion curve nodes, that has light info fed in to it, I seem to get some nice shading going on, itīs to early and to dirty yet so I wonīt post anything yet, at least this
    is a much better approach than faking with emission and gradients there.

    Some adjusments in color and brightness, but the shadowing starts to reminds of blender a bit ..but a bit more work.
    So many things to get it right, setting right scattering scale, the right scattering gradient, the right curve settings for the absorbtion channel, right amount of volumetric intensity vs light intensity, light temperature, physical sky temp, indirect light samples/intensity amound, radiosity samples/intensity.

    Yah..Lightwave engine has a bit more settings to choose it feels like than blenders, where all I mostly have to do is raise volume bounces and transparency bounces, and it will look mostly ok.

  3. #33

    interesting

    yes, not impossible that is the best solution.

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  4. #34
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Blender overnight, downloaded LW yesterday but have yet to find a way to handle preview times, feedback is cruel.

  5. #35
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nez View Post
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    Blender overnight, downloaded LW yesterday but have yet to find a way to handle preview times, feedback is cruel.
    Yes, Lightwave vpr preview is tough..especially since it is required to have GI, and thatīs where the bottleneck is when tweaking, unless a cpu supermachine that is.

    Nah..not sure about continue with lightwave, some times you get interesting shadow behavior, but itīs not a proper match, and itīs difficult to have a proper thick density when working with scatter gradients to be thick on the edges where it should be and thin where it should be, so it could end up with as in this case, to thin edges and also o thin density.

    Itīs a bit strange also that I couldnīt get the view and cloud object to match that of the original while moving camera and object, it doesnīt look the same..weird, itīs difficult cause the opengl is also so slow and poor with the ticks that you have a hard time matching it.

    Blender matches up much more closely in density where it should be thick etc, of course depends on density settings etc, but easier to work with.

    So images below are from the left ...hyperion, blender with some filtering in krita ad lastly lightwave unprocessed, but the lightwave image hasnīt got the proper light angle though, so partly to blame there as well, but didnīt come out as good as I thought it would be.

    Nez, you need to rotate the cloud 180 degree, so it lines up more with the general look for easy compare

    Nothing beats the hyperion render, full white clouds without being overblown washed out from too strong GI or lighting, and producing the dark powder effect while having the sun angle a bit in front of the cloud, you can sort of acheive a little of that in both blender and lightwave with the shadows, but only from much stronger sidelighting, so itīs how it is bouncing back inside the volume with mie functions I suppose.

    A bit unfair comparison, since Hyperion is a special render engine with advances specially designed to meet that real life challenge of how light scatters in clouds, while the others merely adapt what mostly have been acheived before so to speak in volume rendering, but not fully dedicated to meet such real life challenges, not to that extent.


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  6. #36
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    A bit off topic from WDAS disney clouds and rendering, but on topic of clouds...

    Since I more or less have lost a lot of 3D inspiration, and since Lightwave with itīs current render engine and GI and itīs eventual possibilities to work for me in the area of clouds, and fluid simulations..Lightwave simply Isnīt there to work for me in a good enough manner for me to motivate any 3D cloud tutorials on it...as I have wanted to do, (maybe only the noise based clouds from fractals, but fluids no..

    So I wanted to share a recent release from VFX Grace, that is covering cloud generation that seems better than what has been out there before, but still not for Lightwave, itīs for Houdini and itīs foremost about fluid simulations, and it also surpasses any lightwave video there are out there for making clouds, this is how it should be done..
    So it covers a lot of that, in a way I myself wanted to do, though they are far more experienced and skilled with Houdini than I am, so check it out.

    I think it was released in July 2020..




    Oh..and I bumped in the terragen sidefx forums, and I let them know that I think itīs about time they start get VDB import in there, and they responded it was high on priority for terragen, so perhaps an option to get nice vdb cloud renders with that nice engine ..specially designed for clouds, once we do our sims in blender, lightwave, houdini or embergen.
    So I will keep an eye on how that goes...development discussed great.

  7. #37

    you could get Octane

    it will render the clouds nicely in LightWave

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  8. #38
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    Octane can get very approximated indeed.

    So, I have been trying a bit with blender and it's just not enough to do a proper render of this particular case without extreme hacks. As for the pic you showed it seems that Lightwave could do it with time and the proper beast to move it. I won't try further.

    Well, didn't want to leave this thread without sharing some things

    1 - A MIS droplet integrator that was created for blender 7x, I don't have Linux but the creator implies that shouldn't be too difficult to port to windows. Maybe someone is interested in porting t to LW

    https://github.com/jaelpark/droplet-render

    2 - An ODforce thread when the clouds where the hype, and some random druid cracked the code and shared it with the rest of the peasants. It's somewhere down there. 3x hours render, I don't know how much would that take on Karma.

    https://forums.odforce.net/topic/394...as-cloud-hype/

    3- Of course Wenzel Jakob and the gang released Mitsuba 2 some months ago wich includes some integrators, and MIS is among them and in fact it is so accurate that it was the only image done by another renderer included inside the cloud dataset by Disney (it was a fairly lowres, so it's probably better than those of Hyperion). If you're on that scientific jazz, you might like this solution.

    And now it's only a matter of time until that Real-time app that simulates Cloud scattering in almost real time becomes the standard. And a software like embergen absorbs the tech and we have a very close approximation to path traced complex volume scattering in real time for all sorts of scenarios.

    This is my disappointing last test on Blender. I tried clamping the density of the volume and applying that to the anisotropy channel since it's the only control that allows to manipulate how light should interact with the volume, so the hopes were making an outer shell driven by the thickness so to speak, of course very dirty hack. Well, whatever. A little bit of Post-oshop.

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  9. #39



    looks quite good, not perfect, but good.
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  10. #40
    Registered User Wickedpup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nez View Post
    And now it's only a matter of time until that Real-time app that simulates Cloud scattering in almost real time becomes the standard.
    World Creator 3 will have a new real time path tracer, atmospheric scattering, volumetric cloud generation and VDB export. Will be interesting.....

  11. #41
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nez View Post

    This is my disappointing last test on Blender. I tried clamping the density of the volume and applying that to the anisotropy channel since it's the only control that allows to manipulate how light should interact with the volume, so the hopes were making an outer shell driven by the thickness so to speak, of course very dirty hack. Well, whatever. A little bit of Post-oshop.

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    Not entirely correct, anisotrophy directs the light direction, either 0 with even distrubution, and higher values for forward scattering, but it also depends on other stuff fed in to the color channel for density etc, so not the only control for light interaction since how much density there is, actually controls how much of the light should be passed through.

    Thanks for your links will have a look.

    And for your sample, yes..it has some interesting shadowing going on, but the overall density seems a bitt odd, and not what you see from hyperion renders in the actual volume density, to get that right is the first part so the density isnīt oveblown where it shouldnīt be too dense etc.

  12. #42
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    you could get Octane

    it will render the clouds nicely in LightWave

    Well..perhaps, but itīs expensive as well, could just get indie houdini.
    As far as to how well it can handle the full gigabity sets, and how well it scatters, that I would have to try.

    Tried octane free version build for blender, but volumes, it couldnīt handle(failing to render or load or something)..wether or not it was because of the limitations or my card, donīt know.

    Aimed to Nez..I gathered yours to the right here, a bit rescaled up though...
    As we can see in the hyperion render, the detail is foremost defined by the shadow darkness and not by pumped up volume density itself.
    by increasing the density that much, it exceeds how much the volume density actually should be, the gentle shadowing that has a nice gradient softness in the middle ..while still yielding darker edges..thatīs what makes it or brakes it.

    Thankīs for testing Nez.


    yes.. I have seen some of the odforce samples there and that discussion before, the arnold render looks the best in comparison(apart from the hyperion render that is)
    had they just processed the colors/tone of it, and another cam focal I think, it would have been very close.

    Image below, Hyperion, prometheus blender, Nez blender.

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  13. #43
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    So I ran another series of tests in LW using only Scatter and got the results looking quite good... unfortunately, when I went to render, LW gave up, and then I had to get back to actual work.

    Hoping to get back into it and produce a better test for reference. It looked far better in VPR than my previous renders, so I'm interested to see how it will look in the final when I pump up some settings.

    I think the only other drawback will be render time.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPSchmidt View Post
    So I ran another series of tests in LW using only Scatter and got the results looking quite good... unfortunately, when I went to render, LW gave up, and then I had to get back to actual work.

    Hoping to get back into it and produce a better test for reference. It looked far better in VPR than my previous renders, so I'm interested to see how it will look in the final when I pump up some settings.

    I think the only other drawback will be render time.
    Great, hope to see some images of that progress, as mentioned..rendertimes, octane or get a high performing CPU.
    In my other software, I had around 40-80 bounces..and that was for both volume bounces and for transparency bounces, that ment also huge rendertimes, and with the 480 mb wda cloud asset, the gpu gave up so I had to revert to cpu for that.

    Now..Lightwave donīt have any volumetric function for transparancy I think, and exactly what would be equal to 40-80 bounces..
    For lightwave you only have the GI brute force rays values, not any dedicated volume bounces.
    The indirect panel panel needs the indirect sampling to be on for bounces to work inside the volume, but there is no value for volume bounces in there, indirect samples is the quality, intensity will help, but that is a strenth percentage controller.
    I would recommend checking affected by volumetrics in the global illlumination panel, since those settings in the indirect volumetrics panel will then affect the GI overall in the cloud.


    As for the other software, the only light I used was the sunlight, and the skytexture itself, not any environmental light.

  15. #45

    must admit i haven't test rendered clouds in LightWave all that much,

    it is quite possible it is within range to improve the results a bit.
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