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Thread: Gettin' dem Bones in da Body

  1. #1
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Gettin' dem Bones in da Body

    Hey all,

    I never know what the correct forum to use after all these years, so lets try this one.

    Although this looks serious, it's really just an annoyance but hoping there's a definitive recipe for remedying.

    I've gotten a decent workflow of importing posed Daz characters into Lightwave via FBX. What I end up with is a character that I then have to resurface of course, but I also get a 99+% posed figure + an FK rig and object morphs if exported to fine tune with. I can do simple animation with this but these are principally just for stills.

    Anyway, as I mentioned, this is just an annoyance as the bones are all linked via wt. maps so they still work, but it's best to select from scene editor rather than rely on screen view obviously. This only happens when the character is posed other than it's zero pose, in which case all lines up. Haven't figured out how to export just the pose data in which case all of this would become moot. Need some to find really clever, handsome/foxy programmer to take on that task of making a bridge I suppose.

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    In the meantime, isn't there a routine/recipe in Layout of disabling bones 'n such, re-parenting perhaps, moving somethings, having your tongue poking out exactly 5/32" from the left corner of your mouth & right eye squinted, etc. so the bones end up where they should be in the figure?
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  2. #2
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I havenīt tried any other characters really than some of the basic vic 4 and the genesis series, and that often works without issues.

    So the question is..what kind of characters do you use, purchased ones?

    I never use anything else than Lightwave joints when importing daz figures, they follow the mesh limbs along their direction, as opposed to the Lightwave bones.
    Then I delete the two bones called..fbx_base_bone_transformer and the Genesis (version)bone..which is just below the fbx_base_boneTransformer.

    You can select those two both in the same time in scene editor and - for deleting, and click yes..but not clearing descendants, and same again for the second bone.
    That should allow for using IK-booster, and allow for both FK controls and IK controls, if you do not do this, the bones will not be following the mesh properly.

    but..this is just the approach I do for the genesis versions, I think they all should work up to 8 I think, weird though that they have genesis 2-3..but a jump to genesis 8? wonder where 4,5,6,6 did go?
    Not sure if there is a version chart someone could have made, with images, wireframe, and what is different for the different versions..otherwise I may plan to do my own chart of it.

    So I would recommend, import as Lighwave Joints and not Lightwave z bones style, then delete these two bones I talked about, but none of the descendant bones.

    Another good Idea could be to look in to Ryan Royes training for daz, not sure how much he covers lw import and such, for me it is more of interest to look in to the workflow of making my own morphs, clothes..and even new geometry for custom daz figures of my own.

    Im also lookin in to a way of saving the daz bones as genoma presets (sure one could skip that and just go for genoma basic rigs) but I just want to try that, I think there are some plugins for saving out both layout bones to skelegons, as well as Layout bones to genoma, I think I downloaded a plugin for that..from a japanese dev, cant recall which and if it works though.




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  3. #3
    Super Member Kryslin's Avatar
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    I believe RH has his rigging and animation tools, which may be available separately / free, that handle aligning bones and such.

    The issue is that Daz exports as <0,0,0> angles and <x,y,z> offsets instead of as angles <H,P,B> and <0,0,rest length> (which is what Lightwave works best with).

    So while the lightwave joints looks correct, it will be interesting to see what happens when you animate it.
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  4. #4
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryslin View Post
    I believe RH has his rigging and animation tools, which may be available separately / free, that handle aligning bones and such.

    The issue is that Daz exports as <0,0,0> angles and <x,y,z> offsets instead of as angles <H,P,B> and <0,0,rest length> (which is what Lightwave works best with).

    So while the lightwave joints looks correct, it will be interesting to see what happens when you animate it.
    Ya, I tested joints & not useful as joints are moved & not rotated.

    I have RH's series but could never understand what he was doing with the FBX rig.
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  5. #5
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    I havenīt tried any other characters really than some of the basic vic 4 and the genesis series, and that often works without issues.

    So the question is..what kind of characters do you use, purchased ones?

    I never use anything else than Lightwave joints when importing daz figures, they follow the mesh limbs along their direction, as opposed to the Lightwave bones.
    Then I delete the two bones called..fbx_base_bone_transformer and the Genesis (version)bone..which is just below the fbx_base_boneTransformer.

    You can select those two both in the same time in scene editor and - for deleting, and click yes..but not clearing descendants, and same again for the second bone.
    That should allow for using IK-booster, and allow for both FK controls and IK controls, if you do not do this, the bones will not be following the mesh properly.

    but..this is just the approach I do for the genesis versions, I think they all should work up to 8 I think, weird though that they have genesis 2-3..but a jump to genesis 8? wonder where 4,5,6,6 did go?
    Not sure if there is a version chart someone could have made, with images, wireframe, and what is different for the different versions..otherwise I may plan to do my own chart of it.

    So I would recommend, import as Lighwave Joints and not Lightwave z bones style, then delete these two bones I talked about, but none of the descendant bones.

    Another good Idea could be to look in to Ryan Royes training for daz, not sure how much he covers lw import and such, for me it is more of interest to look in to the workflow of making my own morphs, clothes..and even new geometry for custom daz figures of my own.

    Im also lookin in to a way of saving the daz bones as genoma presets (sure one could skip that and just go for genoma basic rigs) but I just want to try that, I think there are some plugins for saving out both layout bones to skelegons, as well as Layout bones to genoma, I think I downloaded a plugin for that..from a japanese dev, cant recall which and if it works though.

    I use Gen8 figures w/ wardrobe & hair for the most part as the textures are usually better. As mentioned to Kryslin, I tested using joints & never had any luck with them. I'll give your steps another test though later on. It's the same FBX just using the Joints option upon opening.

    For something like this though it seems there should be a really simple means of getting them moved into place.

    I did quite successfully completely replace a figure's FBX skel with a RHiggit2 rig using Paint Weights. Much simpler figure w/o wardrobe.
    "Never be a cat in a cartoon. Never." Chief Wiggum

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  6. #6
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post
    I use Gen8 figures w/ wardrobe & hair for the most part as the textures are usually better. As mentioned to Kryslin, I tested using joints & never had any luck with them. I'll give your steps another test though later on. It's the same FBX just using the Joints option upon opening.

    For something like this though it seems there should be a really simple means of getting them moved into place.

    I did quite successfully completely replace a figure's FBX skel with a RHiggit2 rig using Paint Weights. Much simpler figure w/o wardrobe.
    But what goes wrong with joints? do you mean that the mesh is completely off? or do you mean the rotations or ik movement isnīt natural?

    Personally I do not have any issues with importing joints and using ik booster, neither ikf or fk ..but then I am not any experienced true rigger either, so there may be some kind of beavior or movement on the joints that should behave as they do when using ik booster.

    But I have to check what kryslin ment.

  7. #7
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    But what goes wrong with joints? do you mean that the mesh is completely off? or do you mean the rotations or ik movement isnīt natural?

    Personally I do not have any issues with importing joints and using ik booster, neither ikf or fk ..but then I am not any experienced true rigger either, so there may be some kind of beavior or movement on the joints that should behave as they do when using ik booster.

    But I have to check what kryslin ment.
    Problem with joints is when you get to the extremities. There are no goal sets for the last digits.

    But, that did give a cleaner looking rig upon import...

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    Haven't tried your surgery procedure yet.
    "Never be a cat in a cartoon. Never." Chief Wiggum

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  8. #8
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post
    Haven't tried your surgery procedure yet.
    That is a must.
    itīs described with images in some daz pipeline thread...here on the forums.

  9. #9
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    here is the image, delete the two highlighted bones, and you will get that nasty bottom bone away, that bone would affect the mesh also if you apply a walkin figure along a path..so it has to go.

    Select these two and - to delete, but upon requester about if you wish to clear descendands, click no, and it will ask for deleting the next bone you have choosen..click ok, and then you get another requester for descendant bones..click no.

    here is that thread also, and you were a bit active there then as well.
    https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...ge3?styleid=14


  10. #10
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    I'll give that a test drive a bit later today then. Maybe there's a simple solution to getting the end digits working.
    "Never be a cat in a cartoon. Never." Chief Wiggum

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  11. #11
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Well Woo AND Hoo Prom. That worked quite swimmingly. I am a convert.

    And for FK, rotating the joints doesn't seem to be an issue. Can't remember why it was before although that was probably prior to Daz updating on their end.

    Of course with this character, I've never seen so many face controls exported before. He looks like Pinhead?

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    But, Don Leo's happy...


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    "Never be a cat in a cartoon. Never." Chief Wiggum

    The Big Apexx System:
    AMD RYZEN THREADRIPPER 2990WX Processor (3.00GHz)
    64GB DDR4-2666
    2x NVIDIA Quadro RTX 4000 8GB 32 Core (64 cores avail)

  12. #12
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post
    Well Woo AND Hoo Prom. That worked quite swimmingly. I am a convert.

    And for FK, rotating the joints doesn't seem to be an issue. Can't remember why it was before although that was probably prior to Daz updating on their end.

    Of course with this character, I've never seen so many face controls exported before. He looks like Pinhead?

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    But, Don Leo's happy...


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    Yes..pinheads annoys you...would be nicer with a cleaner setup on that, you can select those head bones, or certain parts of the face bones as having smaller icon size..as opposed to the rest, and also in scene editor, change the colors of those bone to something more recognizable for easier handling..

    or simply turn of visibillity for those head bones if you are working on the rest of the body...but still needs all those bones visibile, but you want to see the ful lhead and face without those head pin bones.

  13. #13
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    And by the way..if you happen to not know this?...just because I saw your display with wires.

    Use viewport display with with xray bones instead, to allow for seeing the bones properly, but not getting distracted by all the wireframes, and use textured or textured viewport display.

  14. #14
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    And by the way..if you happen to not know this?...just because I saw your display with wires.

    Use viewport display with with xray bones instead, to allow for seeing the bones properly, but not getting distracted by all the wireframes, and use textured or textured viewport display.
    That was just for display purposes. I toggle between various modes depending on the scene density.

    But I wanted to toss this in:

    There's a bonus advantage of going this route that you might not be aware of. I've never seen examples anyway.

    With earlier, non dForce clothing out of Daz, simple items are usually fine but more complex just won't have it. I wanted to use a Mobster outfit thats G3. Even though converting to a G8, the geometry wasn't up to it. So, looked through what I had & decided a butler outfit would work.

    Well, it did but what I hadn't noticed is that this costume has like 20 buttons! No wonder the button industry was so big back then.

    Anyway, this has ALWAYS been an issue when importing using the Lightwave bones and when I saw the same thing this morning I just sighed. Before, it was a masochistic game of whack-a-mole trying to reparent correctly & maybe axis slide, etc. I usally would just hide or delete where could & only fix what I really had to.

    But, by importing using Joints, the Nulls are getting their co-ords set properly as well I guess and I can simply, with Parent in Place OFF, select a button in Scene Editor, drag it up two slots to unparent from it's null to the nulls parent & BINGO, button is placed correctly.

    So, went from a button popping Butler to corrected in less than 5 minutes.

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    Down side, which is only minor issue that can be ignored, is all the unused nulls now scattered about. Removing them from the hierarchy sounds simple but it's bog slow & hanging the scene if slecting multiples.
    "Never be a cat in a cartoon. Never." Chief Wiggum

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  15. #15
    Just saw this post and was wondering about something.

    I'd like to be able to anchor a characters feet to the ground and make it so I can animate, legs, arms, and hands the same way so that I can animate walks and poses easier.

    How do I create a proper bone chain to allow this? I've tried but ahve not had any success.

    I use predominantly Daz models that are custom modified by myself.

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