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Thread: Time to retire Lightwave 3D from my toolkit.

  1. #16
    Super Member CaptainMarlowe's Avatar
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    Well, Blender is quite about nodes also.

  2. #17
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    yeah. if you hate nodes, could always take up sensei on his option

  3. #18
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainMarlowe View Post
    Well, Blender is quite about nodes also.
    Arenīt they all to a certain degree...But blenders UI for the nodes and how to work with them Is better..with one exception perhaps, and that would be the nodes search and listing in the node editor in lightwave ..which I prefer over blenders, but moving nodes, zooming, exposing the nodes to the other channels and connecting the channels to the nodes is better.

    Eventually Paul would have had to learn the nodes...not if he would have sticked to standard materials, but what point would that be then to upgrade from 2015 anyway.
    but apart from materials, he would need to learn it for volumetrics, displacements, item shape etc.

    That I think he would have overcome, but when so much starts to be completely node reliant as requirement, it kind of looses the love for it...and setting things up nice and easy and fast, that was the Lightwave philosophy which they broke with this journey on to making each element and tool in lightwave..Node required, it didnīt, doesnīt have to go that way..if they care about keeping that old philosophy, or if they should go for a trend that isnīt fullfilling a promise of making the tool easier to use.

    I say it again.." TAKE BACK THE WORKFLOW" That means open up to make a UI for the gas solver as a fluid tool, rewrite the volumetrics to have a hypertexture in volumetrics direct in drop down list to use at once, not node setting it up for each volume item.
    Add ...bring back texture buttons for the principle material (blender has this almost exposed as such) bring back a displacement t button for displacement and standard layer for that, bring back morph buttons.
    Add a texture button that is connected to the item shape near the displace function.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    I say it again.." TAKE BACK THE WORKFLOW" That means open up to make a UI for the gas solver as a fluid tool, rewrite the volumetrics to have a hypertexture in volumetrics direct in drop down list to use at once, not node setting it up for each volume item.
    Add ...bring back texture buttons for the principle material (blender has this almost exposed as such) bring back a displacement t button for displacement and standard layer for that, bring back morph buttons.
    Add a texture button that is connected to the item shape near the displace function.
    I paul is leaving due to lack of support for a feature he has requested for years, what makes you think those features will ever be added or addressed?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Boland View Post
    Hi Folks.

    After a few months of debating the topic at hand, I have decided it's time for me to retire Lightwave 3D from my toolkit. As a 3D hobbyist, I've used Lightwave for sixteen years, doing artwork, animations, and even game development. But as a paying customer, Newtek have failed me for sixteen years in one area...Sliders. After debating the situation for the past few months, I've come to the conclusion that for my 3D hobby and creativity to survive, I need to find a new 3D package to move into.

    I wish Newtek, Lightwave 3D, and all the users and fans all the best, it's been a fun community to be part of, and I'll still be around to some degree, Lightwave 2015 is still installed on my PC, but I have a whole new adventure ahead of me now as I go exploring the 3D landscape and look for my next 3D port to dock at.

    And Newtek, fix Lightwave's Sliders. They've been broken for sixteen years and you've lost a customer (me) because of it.

    Thanks for everything, it's been fun!!

    Great video paul. I don't know why people are complaining about it.

    If you don't like nodes, maybe you could just use an older version?

    On the slider front, couldn't you change your workflow so you don't need to animate all six characters at the same time. I have an ancient version of lw and didn't do animation, but in other 2d packages I would expect to be able to selectively show and hide the sliders for each character or I would animate each character separately and combine them in video. With interaction I would have used video background to get references as required.

    I can't believe it's an issue that is critical or other studios would have been beating Newtek up about it.

    Good luck.

  6. #21
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    My advice..go for blender
    I know you make a reasonable effort to color within the lines, but it's pretty hard to see this as other than a post promoting a competing product (which as we all know, is a violation of forum policy). There are probably equally egregious posts, so I don't mean to be unfair by singling yours out - but just at the moment I'd rather have my morning coffee than audit a half-dozen threads, and this one caught my eye.

    So let's talk about LightWave, shall we?
    --
    Regards, Steve
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  7. #22
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Paul, have you considered Messiah? It's only $65 (get the subscription for a month and then keep the perpetual license). It has the sliders you want and it integrates with the LightWave software you know.

    But, yes, as Sensei points out, there are plenty of options to develop solutions.
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  8. #23
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Hi Paul,

    I just uploaded my video to Vimeo with Legato's latest feature: Selector.
    It's a flexible 2D map, per character or character part, with hotspots that not only select the correct item but also a default tool for that item. Including: Position, Rotation, Stretch, Scale, Squash, Sliders, IKBooster, MorphMixer.
    https://vimeo.com/412056813

    Another video is on its way to show Legato's Audio Analysis.

    Legato is a free LScript plugin for LightWave 2015 ... 2019.
    Support for LW2020 is on its way.
    http://home.kpn.nl/vincentmesman/

    It's an ecosystem with my attempts to collect and combine methods to improve workflow for character animation.
    I started to script myself because LW developers seemed to have different priorities.

    Before you jump over the edge I'd like to say that I wouldn't mind to do some research and create a solution that is capable of presenting a single dialog with a dynamic collection of sliders that match (and drive) the envelopes of the selected item.

    Just let me know if you're interested.
    Download my free Legato plugin for CA in LightWave
    Pose- and Motion Libraries, tools to structure your story/poses/performances, X-sheet I/O, audio analysis, hotspot item selection, ...

  9. #24
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    I paul is leaving due to lack of support for a feature he has requested for years, what makes you think those features will ever be added or addressed?
    What do you mean, what in that question has relevance to what you qouted on my statements on getting back on track to what was there in 2015 versions?

    for the sliders, I have no clue..that wasnīt what I was talking about.

  10. #25
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    I know you make a reasonable effort to color within the lines, but it's pretty hard to see this as other than a post promoting a competing product (which as we all know, is a violation of forum policy). There are probably equally egregious posts, so I don't mean to be unfair by singling yours out - but just at the moment I'd rather have my morning coffee than audit a half-dozen threads, and this one caught my eye.

    So let's talk about LightWave, shall we?


    Sorry steve, Personally I donīt think that is not quite fair, (while I understand the initial reaction)

    I do not agree, this wasnīt a general promotioning of a competing product towards anyone who already hasnīt made up his mind, Paul already made it clear he will not use Lightwave, and my call was for him only, and only him and not for anyone else.
    within that narrative ..You need to go in and stop each and every post when someone is advicing to use a software when another isnīt capable of doing a certain task...or if the user simply put he needs something else to work with.

    So my comment on it is that I think you should look at it in that context, as an aswer to someone who already decided, and as I didnīt aim for anyone else or used a dedicated thread for it.

    And you need to have consistency with that...Gar2w posted..Before me that he could use maya or blender, that is when you could have stopped it ..if considered a violation.
    And we are talking Lightwave...just that he is retiring it, and with that comes other advices..not promotion to get him to another competing product since he already made up his mind.
    My call toward him was for him personally, an not aimed to promote the other software towards the whole LW community.

    That is my perspective on it..if you agree or not..the you have something more to say that brings it to another light or you donīt.
    Have a nice day.

    My suggestion..I know Newtek declared how promoting other products would be a violation.
    But within that there is a lot that can be a violation..A lot, and I think you guys need to clarify what could or should potentionally be qualified as that, or should any advice on using another software (no matter what)
    be considered a violation?

  11. #26
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    Paul, nowadays most software use nodes for shading and animation, this is really nothing special in LightWave. If you want to use B or H you will need nodes even more. If you want to use landscape software, video compositing, sound engineering, software development, data modeling and in many other areas you most likely need nodes too. If you want to use a PBR texturing, you will need to understand that workflow first.

    But no matter if you're using PBR, classic or procedural texturing, I really don't see what's difficult in applying these few maps or textures to the appropriate channels. That's not different in any other software and can be learned within a couple of hours. I'm glad it uses nodes because it allows for experimentation. Yes, UI wise it could be much better but it is what it is and much cheaper then most other software, so what do you expect.

    If you want to dive deeper into nodes and use mathematical calculations, convert data types (vectors, scalars etc.) and more complex stuff, yes that can take a bit more time but it's really not that difficult to grasp.

    You seem not to understand the basics (how to use normal mapping for example). If you can't figure it out yourself, why not take a couple of hours or maybe days to read the manual. Everything is described in detail. I really do not see what takes years to comprehend that.

    https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2020/...rface-overview

    https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2020/...ng/node-editor

    I know it sounds hard but sorry, I have to say it - For what you did so far with LightWave (according to your videos and images I have seen) you don't use LightWave anywhere to its full capacity and it wouldn't look any better with any other software or texturing method. I think you would need to learn basic art fundamentals and how to apply lighting and texturing properly first, your renders look awful lit, very flat, washed out and dull. That's just my personal impression, maybe it's your special style but I see nothing appealing in it.
    Last edited by Marander; 04-27-2020 at 02:21 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    ..Gar26lw posted..Before me that he could use maya or blender, that is when you could have stopped it ..if considered a violation.
    A

    yeah, I did. dude wants to use something else, just trying to help out. I also said he could get Sensei to make a plugin for him to fix the issue to keep using LW too.

    I do have a suggestion, fix up LW with these user requests/bugs and people wont get fed up of asking for x,y,z feature for 16yrs+ (i think it was) The backlog must be enormous and I think a lot of the great threads on features and fixes are probably lost in the forum now. The bevel/rounder one comes to mind.

    Everyone on here has their beef with some fix that has gone on unaddressed for x decades. 16 years waiting and paying seems pretty decent patience to me, its unbelievably frustrating at times when the daily grind is so much harder than it has to be with bugs, UI quirks, workflow issues, broken features and IO issues and he has hit his limit (I spent a day the other week trying go get an fbx rig into unity via layout with no luck, swap to maya, bang!, done in 5 mins, no issues at all. Its that type of stuff that drives you over the edge)

    I think his vid is valid feedback, most don't bother and leave. Stop blaming customers and address their issues, problem solved; or just ignore everyone and go back to the bubble

    Remember modo being an unstable mess? I picked it up and paid from 1 to 10 but you couldn't use it for anything cos of all the issues until many revisions had past. LW is like that, it could be so much better if they just fixed up the outstanding issues. If you use it every day is obvious where the problems are, I guess they have fixed one of the main ones with the latest update to the renderer, which is a good start.

    Always feel pretty bad for saying this stuff as I think of the devs reading and how they might get pretty disheartened, I have empathy for them but this stuff needs to be fixed and it just does not happen, what ya going to do? Last resort is use the wallet.
    Last edited by gar26lw; 04-27-2020 at 02:01 AM.

  13. #28
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Paul, nowadays most software use nodes for shading and animation, this is really nothing special in LightWave. If you want to use B or H you will need nodes even more. If you want to use landscape software, video compositing, sound engineering, software development, data modeling and in many other areas you most likely need nodes too. If you want to use a PBR texturing, you will need to understand that workflow first.

    But no matter if you're using PBR, classic or procedural texturing, I really don't see what's difficult in applying these few maps or textures to the appropriate channels. That's not different in any other software and can be learned within a couple of hours. I'm glad it uses nodes because it allows for experimentation. Yes, UI wise it could be much better but it is what it is and much cheaper then most other software, so what do you expect.

    If you want to dive deeper into nodes and use mathematical calculations, convert data types (vectors, scalars etc.) and more complex stuff, yes that can take a bit more time but it's really not that difficult to grasp.

    You seem not to understand the basics (how to use normal mapping for example). If you can't figure it out yourself, why not take a couple of hours or maybe days to read the manual. Everything is described in detail. I really do not see what takes years to comprehend that.

    https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2020/...rface-overview

    https://docs.lightwave3d.com/lw2020/...ng/node-editor

    I know it sounds hard but sorry, I have to say it - For what you did so far with LightWave (according to your videos and images I have seen) you don't use LightWave anywhere to its full capacity and it wouldn't look any better with any other software or texturing method. I think you would need to learn basic art fundamentals and how to apply lighting and texturing properly first, your renders look awful lit, very flat, washed out and dull. That's just my personal impression, maybe it's your special style but I see nothing appealing in it.

    I sort of agree with you a lot here, though I recommended trying something else, giving Lightwave another go is what I first would recomend initially..though that may not have come through..
    As for nodes ..unavoidable, but Still..Lightwave needs to step up on that with how to work with nodes...thereīs no question though that it can be very powerful considering all the node tools there is, itīs just the workflow and UI of nodes that will put a stick up your...while working with it that feels uncomfortable.

    For me I will check how much of the workflow becomes a required nodal workflow for much of the things, and if not done properly with a framework around it...I will go elsewhere..and what ivé seen so far it is going the wrong way, it still have a change to go the "right direction" but that I will have to look at for in upcoming releases, I plan to fix a website describing these issues soon as well.

    You said you donīt see what is difficult in applying a few maps or texture to appropiacte channels, thatīs not correct...as I said..in software () you can apply the texture in the color channel..and it is autoconnected in the nodes by doing so..that is not how Lightwave works with PBR, that we used to be able to as well, but was not implemented for PBR materials, while still there in standard layers.

    Once you decided to jump in to nodes and work with it, itīs a different thing, but this workflow propagates though not only surfacing, it was the same with legacy hv and the new system..where they destroyed the direct approach of applying hypertextures, you are now required to first select type, then another button to open the node editor, then search for a texture ..add it to the node editor, the connect it to the right inputs..compare that with a direct connection of hypertextures in the old system, and just a drop down list to choose the hypertexture, same with hypertexture effects, you just set your speed for it..done, the new system as described in the docs requires more work as they say themself.

    The item shape displacement is extremly lousy thought of, where you need to jump in two different places to access the displacement, it should be a direct connection button inside the item shape panel.
    Same with surface displacement the actual displace value is located in the modifier tab, while you set the displacement by surface and connect, by having a control for that inside the surface editor, you wouldnīt have to miss this, which often happens for me.

  14. #29
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    yeah, I did. dude wants to use something else, just trying to help out. I also said he could get Sensei to make a plugin for him to fix the issue to keep using LW too.

    I do have a suggestion, fix up LW with these user requests/bugs and people wont get fed up of asking for x,y,z feature for 16yrs+ (i think it was) The backlog must be enormous and I think a lot of the great threads on features and fixes are probably lost in the forum now. The bevel/rounder one comes to mind.

    Everyone on here has their beef with some fix that has gone on unaddressed for x decades. 16 years waiting and paying seems pretty decent patience to me, its unbelievably frustrating at times when the daily grind is so much harder than it has to be with bugs, UI quirks, workflow issues, broken features and IO issues and he has hit his limit (I spent a day the other week trying go get an fbx rig into unity via layout with no luck, swap to maya, bang!, done in 5 mins, no issues at all. Its that type of stuff that drives you over the edge)

    I think his vid is valid feedback, most don't bother and leave. Stop blaming customers and address their issues, problem solved; or just ignore everyone and go back to the bubble

    Remember modo being an unstable mess? I picked it up and paid from 1 to 10 but you couldn't use it for anything cos of all the issues until many revisions had past. LW is like that, it could be so much better if they just fixed up the outstanding issues. If you use it every day is obvious where the problems are, I guess they have fixed one of the main ones with the latest update to the renderer, which is a good start.

    Always feel pretty bad for saying this stuff as I think of the devs reading and how they might get pretty disheartened, I have empathy for them but this stuff needs to be fixed and it just does not happen, what ya going to do? Last resort is use the wallet.
    I agree with you completely on your post here, and chime in on your last sentence that refers to the dev team.

    Personally I must take a decision I think and reduce my time in these forums a lot more..and try also and follow it, hard cause there are some dudes I find it interesting to discuss with,
    but I need to try and limit my time here
    with just helping out with lw issues or tipping on something, and stay away from what I feel needs to be done, or what other software can do better ..or worse..I need to use my own site for that.
    And also in regards to I will have to use something else much more, and as such I am in danger of perhaps go in to much of debate around other software.

    In another forum..Iīm having a full time on explaining why a multiviewport is necessary for good staging and some modeling tasks., but they just tell me to drop my wet Lightwave workflow, but that makes no sense to me..almost every other app uses the same method as Lightwave, except for this particular app..and they seem stuck on not being able to explainnd have no assertments to justify that it wouldnīt be better of having it properly done.
    Thatīs the viewport scaling with mouse on borders, and maximize viewport buttons, that arenīt there...and they just refer to..learn the workflow and you will not miss it, but it doesnīt assert anything that holds up to scrutiny in regards to what I say on why it is important to have more than one viewport.

  15. #30
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    On an additional note, I know Sliders are broken in LW and not working as one would expect.

    However you say that's impossible to do character animation in LW. Many LW artists have created great character animations in the past.

    But maybe they are using it the way most animators do, using the Graph Editor, Morph Mixer, Rig Controls (Nulls) etc.

    And having a quick look in LW plugins, there were 3rd party plugins in the past that should solve the Sliders issue.

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