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Thread: Lightwave 2020

  1. #331
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    People may need to accept the fact that there isn't much development for lightwave and this is what it is...

    Reality is that I am sure they pushed out this release to see if they could get some cash and if it somehow did amazing might re-invest some in to more development and if no one buys it just leave it be. Its very clearly not the main point of focus and to expect some kind of massive change at this time is not realistic... I don't know why people obsess over a unification of layout and modeler. part of the appeal is the separation and most apps nowadays are not used as a one tool fits all. I don't mind the separation. I don't model when I animate and I enjoy the separate mindset.

    There is a lot of competition in this space and many users from very developed softwares like Maya and Max are still going over to free alternatives... at this point those free alternatives by any fair measure outperform lightwave and offer every tool that people here are demanding...

    If you want a unified app with a GPU renderer with the most advanced modeling tools that are non destructive and constant development you can literally have it for free... so why are people so upset over it not existing in lightwave... it's literally free to have everything you are asking for.

    I figured this release would be the most telling about lightwave's future but unless there is some secret behind the scenes work going on (which seems unlikely) than I think this is telling of what's coming. Here is the reality.

    The company was not acquired for lightwave...

    There is massive competition in this space and lightwave's share is very low at the moment... even the big dogs are struggling to compete with Blender at this point and private development is very expensive... even in a perfect world it's hard to believe Lightwave becomes a leader.. arguablly all applications are going to have a hard time within the next 5 years with the advancement happening due to public software development.

    This release has very very few upgrades and it's hard to believe a ton of money and time went in to this which is sad..

    There clearly is a lack of effort on education, communication, development, marketing and even copywriting on the website... I try and bring people over to lightwave and it's impossible... Recent high quality work is hard to find... no one is making shorts... there is no consistent education especially that is free and there is zero communication or work to acquire new users... so them investing millions in to hoping this becomes mainstream is not realistic.

    I don't think it's right to be mad about it.

    The tools in lightwave are still great and if they work for you keep using them and when they don't anymore i would say just switch to something else. The nice thing is licenses are perpetual so if you have 2018 and it works for part of your workflow just compliment it with blender and keep going.. It doesn't cost you more money and you can still use lightwave as part of your workflow where you see it fit.

    My personal opinion is had they developed a GPU renderer I would say this would be a very worthy upgrade and show promise.. or development in catching modeler up to other apps etc... anything that showed real intention to improve the software.

    This was maintenance imo.

    If you are dating a girl who is no longer interested in you and not giving you what you need it's your choice what to do

    Hopefully lightwave becomes public and people develop it in the community... SET IT FREE! :O

  2. #332
    I should update my Avatar Verlon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
    As you are probably aware of, Apple has deprecated OpenGL in favour of its own Metal. That means Lightwave's viewport code MUST be rewritten to work with Metal, otherwise Lightwave will stop working on Macs in a few years.

    I wonder if the LW development team is working on making this transition to Metal?
    Yep. I know. And the lack of talk about Metal has me doubting the development in that direction.
    Verlon Smith

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  3. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Considering you have a quite fast cpu to render with, those rendertimes are way too long, if I would have tried that on my machine..I am sure it would have been much longer rendertimes.
    Anyway..a slight speed improvement perhaps for the AFC shader.


    I wonder how fast you could render hair in ..you know what ..for free?
    Oh, I've been playing..yes I'll say the name of that which must not be named....Blender..and it renders really fast in Cycles..Eevee is fast too, but looks less realistic, manipulating the viewpoer isnt bogged down either. However, the material is a little easier to setup in LW. But I chalk that up to my noobness in Blender.

    FFX is quite ancient (as are many other parts), and should be seriously replaced with moedern systems.
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  4. #334
    I will say this which is good for newbies - if you take 2019 and clear the scene and do the same with 2020 and drop in the same model - you'll get nicer result right out of the box with 2020.

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  5. #335
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    The phone company is finally working on fixing the connection in my neighborhood. I hope to try LW2020 out later today. But I will say I'll have to pay US $100 more than what I paid for to upgrade my Form Z software. The Maxwell Render plugin I bought for that is recently getting a special export from Substance Painter. I also paid around $100 less for that plug-in and it supports multi-GPU rendering. I hope the FBX improvements in 2020 are really good.
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  6. #336
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilanvfs View Post
    People may need to accept the fact that there isn't much development for lightwave and this is what it is...

    Reality is that I am sure they pushed out this release to see if they could get some cash and if it somehow did amazing might re-invest some in to more development and if no one buys it just leave it be. Its very clearly not the main point of focus and to expect some kind of massive change at this time is not realistic... I don't know why people obsess over a unification of layout and modeler. part of the appeal is the separation and most apps nowadays are not used as a one tool fits all. I don't mind the separation. I don't model when I animate and I enjoy the separate mindset.

    There is a lot of competition in this space and many users from very developed softwares like Maya and Max are still going over to free alternatives... at this point those free alternatives by any fair measure outperform lightwave and offer every tool that people here are demanding...

    If you want a unified app with a GPU renderer with the most advanced modeling tools that are non destructive and constant development you can literally have it for free... so why are people so upset over it not existing in lightwave... it's literally free to have everything you are asking for.

    I figured this release would be the most telling about lightwave's future but unless there is some secret behind the scenes work going on (which seems unlikely) than I think this is telling of what's coming. Here is the reality.

    The company was not acquired for lightwave...

    There is massive competition in this space and lightwave's share is very low at the moment... even the big dogs are struggling to compete with Blender at this point and private development is very expensive... even in a perfect world it's hard to believe Lightwave becomes a leader.. arguablly all applications are going to have a hard time within the next 5 years with the advancement happening due to public software development.

    This release has very very few upgrades and it's hard to believe a ton of money and time went in to this which is sad..

    There clearly is a lack of effort on education, communication, development, marketing and even copywriting on the website... I try and bring people over to lightwave and it's impossible... Recent high quality work is hard to find... no one is making shorts... there is no consistent education especially that is free and there is zero communication or work to acquire new users... so them investing millions in to hoping this becomes mainstream is not realistic.

    I don't think it's right to be mad about it.

    The tools in lightwave are still great and if they work for you keep using them and when they don't anymore i would say just switch to something else. The nice thing is licenses are perpetual so if you have 2018 and it works for part of your workflow just compliment it with blender and keep going.. It doesn't cost you more money and you can still use lightwave as part of your workflow where you see it fit.

    My personal opinion is had they developed a GPU renderer I would say this would be a very worthy upgrade and show promise.. or development in catching modeler up to other apps etc... anything that showed real intention to improve the software.

    This was maintenance imo.

    If you are dating a girl who is no longer interested in you and not giving you what you need it's your choice what to do

    Hopefully lightwave becomes public and people develop it in the community... SET IT FREE! :O
    No..doesnīt your question answer you with the true facts..why do you ask it when you must know it isnīt true, it explained it well..why are people asking for it when you can have it All for free..that statement verifies itself as not being true...since you can see people are asking for features right..why would anyone ask for it otherwise?

    The free alternatives doesnīt give us all we want for free.

    there are a lot in lightwave I would want in the free software..that simply isnīt there.

    This is a software..not a girlfriend to date by the way

  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Parsons View Post
    I will say this which is good for newbies - if you take 2019 and clear the scene and do the same with 2020 and drop in the same model - you'll get nicer result right out of the box with 2020.
    You could populate a full sunsky environment too by default and things would look really nice. Why not do that too? Simple answer: Such "one-size-fits-all" defaults quickly turn into "just more crap to turn off/fix".

    Even novice users quickly grow and learn what's best for their specific work style -- and it's rarely the same as "what's best for a complete novice". Instead of making poor "one-size-fits-all" presumptions about users, give users multiple good starting points based on their goals, mandatorily incl. one which is essentially a "blank page". Yeesh, word processors figured that out a couple of decades ago.

    LW already lets users save their own "default scene". The LW devs should provide that with better mgmt. UI/UX, even set up a "Beginner New Scene" wizard or something that allows selecting from a set of "default template scenes" from among a set of common "use-case starting points" to begin (like most other pkgs now do, btw). Obviously, allow users to create their own "starting point" templates too, incl. saving it as a "favorite".

    Put another way, it's long past time the LW devs focused on UX patterns from after 1999. "One-size-fits-all" defaults died for many excellent, well-understood reasons.
    John W.
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  8. #338
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwanmtr View Post
    Oh, I've been playing..yes I'll say the name of that which must not be named....Blender..and it renders really fast in Cycles..Eevee is fast too, but looks less realistic, manipulating the viewpoer isnt bogged down either. However, the material is a little easier to setup in LW. But I chalk that up to my noobness in Blender.

    FFX is quite ancient (as are many other parts), and should be seriously replaced with moedern systems.
    ok.
    Yes, eevee is a different thing though, it canīt replace cycles all the way..as you pointed out about realism, but for somethings and some effects it will work quite nicely.
    Love the hair shader in blender, just changing melanin amount and go from blonde to redhead or darkhead.

    I did a volumetric render sequence of 150 frames, took around 10 minutes in total, with quite decent volumetric quality..but I got to much conversion banding artifacts from the volumetrics while publishing on youtube for that one, even though I managed to compress the movie to look nicely when playing with quicktime, need to check why this happens...could be the color space profile...when I look at it now posted here as well.


    So just a still image..but for each frame in the animation maybe 5 seconds per frame...but that was with cuda gpu and asus GCB rog gtx 1080, your cpu would outscore me more though..and especially in lightwave rendertimes..so the question is how much faster your gpu would be than mine.


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  9. #339
    Nice renders. The few things Ive done so far have been pressive, specially in the feedback speed. Its really making me lean away from LW..but not completely...at least not until I'm able to get the same level as I can with LW, given that I've had to learn every workaround and niggle for like many years..lol.

    I will probably buy 2020, but unless they really push development as they need to, I'll be moving more to the darkside (no, not AD).
    Rob Depew
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  10. #340

    FiberFX

    lwanmtr, don't use interpolated / Irradiance for FiberFX
    it is slow, and possibly adds render artifacts.
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  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    No..doesnīt your question answer you with the true facts..why do you ask it when you must know it isnīt true, it explained it well..why are people asking for it when you can have it All for free..that statement verifies itself as not being true...since you can see people are asking for features right..why would anyone ask for it otherwise?

    The free alternatives doesnīt give us all we want for free.

    there are a lot in lightwave I would want in the free software..that simply isnīt there.

    This is a software..not a girlfriend to date by the way
    That's why you can still use Lightwave alongside the free software and get the best of both worlds.

    I would love to see lightwave implement those features so it's all under one roof but that doesn't really exist in any software...

    A 3d software is exactly like a g/f You put in a lot of work... then when you want to render you have to sit around forever and wait. They randomly crash on you when you need them most, Some are pretty on the outside but ugly on the inside, some are free and others are expensive


    :O

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilanvfs View Post
    That's why you can still use Lightwave alongside the free software and get the best of both worlds.

    I would love to see lightwave implement those features so it's all under one roof but that doesn't really exist in any software...

    A 3d software is exactly like a g/f You put in a lot of work... then when you want to render you have to sit around forever and wait. They randomly crash on you when you need them most, Some are pretty on the outside but ugly on the inside, some are free and others are expensive


    :O
    Not quite, some things need to work in one software at once to take use of what you actually are aiming for, the fact that one may be free and do one thing, and the other cost and can do the thing the free one canīt..doesnīt make them work completely
    flawlessly together to produce what you are after.

    We have different experience on computers and girlfriends for sure

    Of course everyone wants the super package of all features in one software, but just because it doesnīt exist in any software..doesnīt emply you canīt ask for the features you need.

  13. #343
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lwanmtr View Post
    Nice renders. The few things Ive done so far have been pressive, specially in the feedback speed. Its really making me lean away from LW..but not completely...at least not until I'm able to get the same level as I can with LW, given that I've had to learn every workaround and niggle for like many years..lol.

    I will probably buy 2020, but unless they really push development as they need to, I'll be moving more to the darkside (no, not AD).
    as can be seen..the jpg image is sort of similar to what happened in the conversion..need to check if itīs just bad compression or the color profile..for the uploaded animation on youtube it became to horrible, though the rendered sequence processed through davinci resolve looked decent when playing through the quicktime player, I tried many codecs, tried uncompressed avi format and uploaded, but looked like crap anyway, not sure if it is something in the eevee rendered png output which becomes notable bad when compressed, will try with Lightwave Global scattering and render a sequence, but that will be like 10 minutes or more for each frame and not 10 minutes for all 150 frames like with eevee.

    the latest blender version removed the ESM shadow type I think, which I think looked better than what we can get with the latest blender version..so I think they screwed some things up there.
    I am not that fond of the mantaflow smoke fluids either ..so there are some frustrations on some of the development there as well.


    Oh..bummer, I removed the vid from youtube, was about to post it as unlisted..but I thought it was too bad in quality so I removed it...vimeo could probably handle it better, but also to limiting in uploads per week and speed to upload.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Not quite, some things need to work in one software at once to take use of what you actually are aiming for, the fact that one may be free and do one thing, and the other cost and can do the thing the free one canīt..doesnīt make them work completely
    flawlessly together to produce what you are after.

    We have different experience on computers and girlfriends for sure

    Of course everyone wants the super package of all features in one software, but just because it doesnīt exist in any software..doesnīt emply you canīt ask for the features you need.
    What would you say is unique to lightwave that other softwares are lacking?

    I think this would be a good thing to breakdown as the most people understand what is great about lightwave the more they may try it and stick with it.

    I would love to hear opinions about unique features to lightwave that have the upper hand on other softwares.

    I think that IK/FK rig is very unique to lightwave and pretty amazing.

  15. #345
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilanvfs View Post
    What would you say is unique to lightwave that other softwares are lacking?

    I think this would be a good thing to breakdown as the most people understand what is great about lightwave the more they may try it and stick with it.

    I would love to hear opinions about unique features to lightwave that have the upper hand on other softwares.

    I think that IK/FK rig is very unique to lightwave and pretty amazing.
    Not all other software is lacking, I use Lightwave and blender mainly for the main package, and some learnings with Houdini, some character tools.

    I have always praised Lightwaves huge libraries of fractals, which for blender is just simply poor, there are some additionall noise fractals you can get, but in principle itīs just based on the same main noises ..connected in a multiverse of nested node setups..itīs horrible and also slows down rendering a lot.

    That is however not unique to Lightwave...Cinema4D seem to have some nices ones as well, but itīs beyond my desired price range.

    The the workflow for some things, I still hate to move around and navigate in blender, structuring up items in a scene stage, that I prefer in Lightwave.

    Still prefer some of the ease of adding volumetrics compared to blenders volumetric materials that requires meshes.

    some of the more direct approaches of adding points, copy and pasting on layers, direct draw of spline curves in a different manner than blender curves..though blender curves are much much more powerful in other ways.

    Camera navigation and lights..prefer that in Lightwave..

    That said, blender has taken huge steps the latest 4 years, and while doing so..Ivé had the chance to dig deeper in to it and learn.


    working with displacement standard layers is also more nicer for me to do in Lightwave than in blender, you can not stack the procedurals directly on top of eachother and blending with gradients the same way as we can in lightwave, you add displacement modifiers each time which is tedious and slow and not as flexible., unless I have missed something there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ilanvfs View Post
    I think this would be a good thing to breakdown as the most people understand what is great about lightwave the more they may try it and stick with it.

    I actually had that in mind, writing a blog on a website and describe some things how they work differently..but the latest lw release also kind of got me discouraged to do so, lack of motivation somehow.

    had I the same straight add volumetric items approach in blender, and most of Lightwaves procedurals in blender, and the approach of working with scene items, cameras and lights..there wouldnīt be much left to wish for inside of blender, maybe bullet bone dynamics and motors..and perhaps Ik-booster, but other than that...not sure.
    The light types and the amount of control you have in lightwave for that is also something I feel is better done than in blender.

    Favorite tools in blender is ..sculpting, hair styling and rendering, skin modifier, and the curves tool that can be animated and is none destructible, can be drawn directly on a surface with full filled 3d Geometry.
    And native fluids that works with all forces, and GPU cycles rendering speed, emissive material looks better and faster, and the subsurface as well, though can not tell about the new LW 20202 subsurface compared to blender.

    Oh..the fractal textures can be used in almost every place in Lightwave, while you seem much more limited in blender when it comes to driving channels with that.

    That said..and as I said in another thread, I think Lightwave is going the wrong way in some areas, and too little of what I needed to be seen is there in 2020..so no upgrade this time and more focus on other software for me.

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