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Thread: EmberGEN Joins OTOY Octane API

  1. #1
    Registered User 3dhotshot's Avatar
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    EmberGEN Joins OTOY Octane API


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    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    That's probably good for the Embergen folks, but not as good for 3D ecosystem diversity I suspect. Oh well, time will tell.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.5 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  3. #3
    TD/Animator lino.grandi's Avatar
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    Embergen generates formats any 3D software can use. The agreement with OTOY doesn't change that. In which way do you think that's not good?
    Lino Grandi

    3D Artist at OTOY

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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lino.grandi View Post
    Embergen generates formats any 3D software can use. The agreement with OTOY doesn't change that. In which way do you think that's not good?
    Correction, only VDB formats for those 3D software that can handle VDB, not all can and some just recently implementing it in the core of their software.
    Not any 3D software, any vdb supported software..yes.

    Embergen is really interesting...I will check it with Blender as well soon.
    For me I would like to know where jawset and turbulenceFD is heading, as well as the next lightwave ..before making a decision on Embergen.

  5. #5
    TD/Animator lino.grandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Correction, only VDB formats for those 3D software that can handle VDB, not all can and some just recently implementing it in the core of their software.
    Not any 3D software, any vdb supported software..yes.
    Any 3D software can import and render OpenVDBs, natively or through external renders implementation (Octane being one of those, of course).
    Lino Grandi

    3D Artist at OTOY

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    Registered User tyrot's Avatar
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    as a die hard octane fan it is a great news ...
    lino by the way since you are here - how is your italian friends - family members ? everything is getting better ?

  7. #7
    TD/Animator lino.grandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrot View Post
    as a die hard octane fan it is a great news ...
    lino by the way since you are here - how is your italian friends - family members ? everything is getting better ?
    Everything and everyone is fine, thanks! I hope the same for all of you!
    Lino Grandi

    3D Artist at OTOY

  8. #8
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lino.grandi View Post
    Any 3D software can import and render OpenVDBs, natively or through external renders implementation (Octane being one of those, of course).
    Lino..my man
    But where do you get that idea that any 3D software can import and render OpenVDBīs, there are some that cant...

    vue can..since the latest release and not before, Terragen can Not.
    Sketchup can not.
    Most Cad design tools can not.(yes..itīs 3d software)
    Gaea can not
    World machine can not
    Daz studio ?
    Poser?


    But I think you mean specificly the major Full VFX 3D tools..but then again, all the others I mentioned which canīt import it... belongs to the category of 3D software, and especially notable is terragen...which is the one you really would like to have VDB import and especially since vue is the competitor and has just that, Terragen if I am not mistaken is working on export for VDB, but hasnīt got the import yet as far as I know.

    And yes, hope that all you know in your homeland is in the clear, though you must have been affected still even so.

  9. #9
    TD/Animator lino.grandi's Avatar
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    Sorry, duplicated post!
    Last edited by lino.grandi; 04-11-2020 at 09:44 AM.
    Lino Grandi

    3D Artist at OTOY

  10. #10
    TD/Animator lino.grandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Lino..my man
    But where do you get that idea that any 3D software can import and render OpenVDBīs, there are some that cant...

    vue can..since the latest release and not before, Terragen can Not.
    Sketchup can not.
    Most Cad design tools can not.(yes..itīs 3d software)
    Gaea can not
    World machine can not
    Daz studio ?
    Poser?


    But I think you mean specificly the major Full VFX 3D tools..but then again, all the others I mentioned which canīt import it... belongs to the category of 3D software, and especially notable is terragen...which is the one you really would like to have VDB import and especially since vue is the competitor and has just that, Terragen if I am not mistaken is working on export for VDB, but hasnīt got the import yet as far as I know.
    When I'm talking about "3D software" of course I mean the major general purpose animation software packages (DCC) available, those used in animation and FX production: LightWave, MODO, Houdini, Maya, Cinema, Max, Blender, but also Unity and Unreal. And, more in general, the ones also able to render volumetrics, natively or using an external render.
    All the software you're mentioning have a very different focus than rendering volumetrics or creating animation/fx. Sketchup and any Cad software are specialized modeling packages. World Machine, Daz and Poser very specialized world and characters creation software packages.

    Terragen generates its own volumetric data internally (and it generates beautiful clouds), exactly as Embergen does, so importing VDBs make very little sense. And again, we're not talking about an typical animation/FX software package in this case.

    But I shouldn't even had to write all of this, since you perfectly got what I was talking about.

    We're totally deviating from my initial question anyway, which is in which way the existance of OTOY's Embergen FX can possibly put the "3D ecosystem diversity" in danger, since the standard Embergen version will still exists and be developed independently.
    Last edited by lino.grandi; 04-11-2020 at 09:46 AM.
    Lino Grandi

    3D Artist at OTOY

  11. #11
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lino.grandi View Post
    When I'm talking about "3D software" of course I mean the major general purpose animation software packages (DCC) available, those used in animation and FX production: LightWave, MODO, Houdini, Maya, Cinema, Max, Blender, but also Unity and Unreal. And, more in general, the ones also able to render volumetrics, natively or using an external render.
    All the software you're mentioning have a very different focus than rendering volumetrics or creating animation/fx. Sketchup and any Cad software are specialized modeling packages. World Machine, Daz and Poser very specialized world and characters creation software packages.
    Terragen generates its own volumetric data internally (and it generates beautiful clouds), exactly as Embergen does, so importing VDBs makes very little sense. And again, we're not talking about a typical animation/FX software package in this case.

    We're totally deviating from my initial question anyway, which is in which why the existance of OTOY's Embergen FX can possibly put the "3D ecosystem diversity" in danger, since the standard Embergen version will still exists and be developed independently.

    And no..all the other software, daz and terragen is of high interest for this stuff...and you said "Any 3D software) not vfx volumetric render software

    We are totally following my question on why you insisted to say Any, yes..I know..I am obtous now because you stated something based on what you ment and not fully correct accordingly to your statement...as Any, had you said..any 3d package of importance for film VFX, I could agree...even though Terragen should be counted in. (now you go sigh..heīs soo nit picking on lesser important detals : ) )

    As for VDBīs in terragen..On contrary..I disagree completely..it makes every sense to have VDB import there, I also think Vue took the right route of focusing on import rather than export of VDB to enhance what kind of clouds you can acheive in vue......hero clouds or even simulated ones as animation is where VDB could enhance all that.

    Despite the nice terragen fractal clouds , simulating per noise animation and fractals willl not be half as realistic as a vdb sim.

    And besides the actual simulation, it will not be able to produce the kind of clouds you may need from a fluid simulation, despite how good itīs current clouds is..it simply canīt.

    For embergen and possibly use it to create cloud sims, I would like to see a procedural texture driven fluid emission..just as you activated that for fluid density in blender, or for lightwave and TurbulenceFD, which means they also would need to implement fractal textures of importance to do that in the first place.

    Lino..donīt bother explaining or justify yourself with the nitpick of Any3D software.. I see no point fussing with it ..especially not with someone like me

    If you have additional ideas on why terragen really doesnīt benefit from importing VDB, or ideas on embergen and clouds..that I would like to hear.

  12. #12
    TD/Animator lino.grandi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    And no..all the other software, daz and terragen is of high interest for this stuff...and you said "Any 3D software) not vfx volumetric render software

    We are totally following my question on why you insisted to say Any, yes..I know..I am obtous now because you stated something based on what you ment and not fully correct accordingly to your statement...as Any, had you said..any 3d package of importance for film VFX, I could agree...even though Terragen should be counted in. (now you go sigh..heīs soo nit picking on lesser important detals : ) )
    Well, you got what I meant since my first post anyway by your own definition: "But I think you mean specificly the major Full VFX 3D tools".
    My point was totally and exclusively related to the fact that currently Embergen can only export VDBs for interchange with 3D apps (it can also export some dedicated game engine formats), and that OTOY Embergen FX is not preventing the software from going on doing it or add other interchange formats.


    As for VDBīs in terragen..On contrary..I disagree completely..it makes every sense to have VDB import there, I also think Vue took the right route of focusing on import rather than export of VDB to enhance what kind of clouds you can acheive in vue......hero clouds or even simulated ones as animation is where VDB could enhance all that.

    Despite the nice terragen fractal clouds , simulating per noise animation and fractals willl not be half as realistic as a vdb sim.
    Terragen can generate some amazing clouds:

    https://youtu.be/87TkK1_avO0

    Moreover, if you're using Terragen for generating terrains, you can export the result in any of the major 3D apps, where you can also add any VDB file and use it.

    And besides the actual simulation, it will not be able to produce the kind of clouds you may need from a fluid simulation, despite how good itīs current clouds is..it simply canīt.

    For embergen and possibly use it to create cloud sims, I would like to see a procedural texture driven fluid emission..just as you activated that for fluid density in blender, or for lightwave and TurbulenceFD, which means they also would need to implement fractal textures of importance to do that in the first place.
    Embergen main target is generating animated fire/smoke/explosion effects. It can be used to also generate clouds, of course, and procedural noises are in the road-map:
    https://trello.com/b/ulnwrMxv/embergen-public-roadmap


    Lino..donīt bother explaining or justify yourself with the nitpick of Any3D software.. I see no point fussing with it ..especially not with someone like me
    Oh, we're just having a typical nerd-chat at the end.

    If you have additional ideas on why terragen really doesnīt benefit from importing VDB, or ideas on embergen and clouds..that I would like to hear.
    Terragen is a very specialized application. My feeling is that when we both think about VDBs, I think about fire/smoke/explosion effects/simulation while you mostly think about generating clouds.
    From what I see on the web (not a Terragen user), the clouds generated by Terragen may really look nice and realistic:

    https://planetside.co.uk/wp-content/...k_basinski.jpg
    https://planetside.co.uk/wp-content/...-1920x1080.jpg
    https://planetside.co.uk/wp-content/...urricane_2.jpg

    It could benefit of VDB import as long as you absolutely need to render your scenes in Terragen and you need "custom" volumes, of course. But, as I mentioned, you can export Terragen meshes/textures in any other software supporting FBX (and all MAJOR 3D APP support FBX!).

    By the way, try the Embergen demo as you have time, it's amazing.
    Last edited by lino.grandi; 04-11-2020 at 11:54 AM.
    Lino Grandi

    3D Artist at OTOY

  13. #13
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lino.grandi View Post
    Well, you got what I meant since my first post anyway by your own definition: "But I think you mean specificly the major Full VFX 3D tools".
    My point was totally and exclusively related to the fact that currently Embergen can only export VDBs for interchange with 3D apps (it can also export some dedicated game engine formats), and that OTOY Embergen FX is not preventing the software from going on doing it or add other interchange formats.




    Terragen can generate some amazing clouds:

    https://youtu.be/87TkK1_avO0

    Moreover, if you're using Terragen for generating terrains, you can export the result in any of the major 3D apps, where you can also add any VDB file and use it.



    Embergen main target is generating animated fire/smoke/explosion effects. It can be used to also generate clouds, of course, and procedural noises are in the road-map:
    https://trello.com/b/ulnwrMxv/embergen-public-roadmap




    Oh, we're just having a typical nerd-chat at the end.



    Terragen is a very specialized application. My feeling is that when we both think about VDBs, I think about fire/smoke/explosion effects/simulation while you mostly think about generating clouds.
    From what I see on the web (not a Terragen user), the clouds generated by Terragen may really look nice and realistic:

    https://planetside.co.uk/wp-content/...k_basinski.jpg
    https://planetside.co.uk/wp-content/...-1920x1080.jpg
    https://planetside.co.uk/wp-content/...urricane_2.jpg

    It could benefit of VDB import as long as you absolutely need to render your scenes in Terragen and you need "custom" volumes, of course. But, as I mentioned, you can export Terragen meshes/textures in any other software supporting FBX (and all MAJOR 3D APP support FBX!).

    By the way, try the Embergen demo as you have time, it's amazing.
    Itīs the micropoly handling within terragen that makes it looks great, so for me..exporting terragen is sort of a dead end..where gaea and world machine would be better..and the workflow of exporting terraing to blender or lighwave and then used vdb in there, is sort of a no no for me, itīs the terragen lighting within the volumes that is great, thus a vdb import would have been better, as well as maintaining the rendering of the terrain inside of terragen.

    Yes..that youtube cloud is one of the better hero clouds, but even that has limitis, and if you ever tried to rotate a hero cloud in terragen, with simple rotate..no..that is a no no, it takes a lot of tweaks to do such hero clouds by the way, and stacking them on top of eachother and set desired heights, itīs sort of very much work to get it going...navigation and rotation of items in Terragen is simply horrible, they should look at how vue does that..but other than that, terragen the best cloud fractals and the best lighting and scattering in the atmosphere.

    We still need some better volumetic scattering in Lightwave, I am currently testing some things with it, but itīs not as easy to work with as terragens atmosphere or vue for the spectral look.

    As for you final lines, as said, itīs the terragen lighting and atmosphere engine you want..with vdb, not sending the terrain to another 3d software to sacrifice control of terraing quality and also loose the wonderful lighting and atmosphere terragen has to offer..just to be able to work with VDB custom clouds.

    As for embergen, I did..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btPLNC7v55k

    And for testing someone else fire plume...in Lightwave, so it wasnīt designed for the scene or to be an explosion, just wanted to check the fireshading in Lightwave, still have to install the blender volume branch, or if it now is part of the latest blender master I think.


    Ohh..and no...I think about both clouds, nebula, smoke fire and explosions...se my blender small tank explosion test( the others on my youtube site, not this clip below), still evaluating some of that...but I think embergen could be of real help there to avoid simulating for ever.

  14. #14
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Hijacking from Embergen topic perhaps, but since you Lino referenced to Terragen..a little offtopic will come here.

    2018 I did some testing and showcase of some multiple scattering and lighting quality settings for a little guide in terragen, a quick test only..I wasnīt aiming specificly for the cloud shape to be something of that of the terragen turntable..which is quite comples in nodal setup as I understand it, many asked for that scene..but they didnīt allow for that asset to be included, only referenced to some articles on how to go about it.

    So..itīs not that you can just watch that turntable and think you can easy and quick make a similar cloud like that (which software can by the way) always takeīs some skills with noise and nodals and other settings..understanding how the software works in order to get the most of it.

    But besides that...with reference to how Terragen deals with multiple scattering, lighting and to get that realistic powder effect in the clouds..where the edges of the clouds get darker (the inscatter effect) that is something I havenīt been able to produce with lightwave so far anyway..(still R&D) not sure if Blender or Octane would be able to produce that effect? you Lino may know more about that perhaps?

    The best looking one is the Hyperion render demonstrating that with the Disney VDB WDA asset cloud...
    https://forums.odforce.net/topic/394...as-cloud-hype/

    As for lightwave..dealing with multiple scattering isnīt particulary nice, itīs doable with indirect samplings for the volumetrics and increasing intensity and also a little increase in radiosity intensity.

    So with all that mentioned, I think that exporting any terragen cloud is of no good use, not with the current Lightwave GI and multiple scattering handling in volumetrics..
    And again, On the other hand..getting a fluid simulation or a houdini sculpted or volume painted cloud, designed exactly as you want it..as a VDB volume to render in terragen would be the sweetest thing.
    And as mentioned, gaea and worldmachine is a better choice than terragen landscapes to export if you need terrain.
    Thatīs my thoughts on it all anyway


    Another matter when you face heavy rendertimes in Terragen..that will be the case, so you need a renderfarm I reckon for animations, and another matter if you include flying objects and have other vfx elements of course.






    Terragen sample of scattering settings I did 2018..Still only on the Demo, because I simply loath the UI and the controls in Terragen unfortunately.


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