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Thread: Light Types Selective to Volumetrics it seems

  1. #16
    Super Member kolby's Avatar
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    Check attached scene.
    Enable VPR, enable OpenGL Overlay to see null objects with measured distances to the camera. Play with Volumetric Distance value and compare with null's distances you see in VPR.
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  2. #17
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ma3rk;1590353]
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Had you followed my advice given previously, you would have solved it earlier.
    just changed the volumetric distance..1m is Way to short...that is just one footstep away and the room is larger than that and so is the distance to the windows and lights.

    See image...

    I fiddled with that w/ no apparent change.

    Appreciate the help in any case.
    I donīt follow you...setting the volumetric distance to 29.7m was all I did, and it worked..so why not for you? it should as you can see in the image..
    did you by any chance have selected the wrong light when doing it? I mean everything is intact in your scene and not changed by me except for that setting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kolby View Post
    Check attached scene.
    Enable VPR, enable OpenGL Overlay to see null objects with measured distances to the camera. Play with Volumetric Distance value and compare with null's distances you see in VPR.
    Great..but Ive already told him what value to set..and with an image..all based on his scene, nothing else changed than the volumetric distance, it should work.

    And by the way, it works with my fog item approach as well, and in such case..you do not have to worry about any volumetric distance setting, just made primitive item in volume mode and scaled it to cover the room.
    What I need to evaluate is the quality and realism, and renderspeed VS the Global scattering method, for outside environment I recommend fog volume item, but for indoors..not sure yet.

  3. #18
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=prometheus;1590358]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post

    I donīt follow you...setting the volumetric distance to 29.7m was all I did, and it worked..so why not for you? it should as you can see in the image..
    did you by any chance have selected the wrong light when doing it? I mean everything is intact in your scene and not changed by me except for that setting.

    Just didn't wiggle far enough is all. Probably that ol' Metric-English thing, ya know. Wasn't until I got in the 50' range that I could see the effect & got the ah HA moment.

    The real thing that made it click were these key words: Distance To Camera. Yet another "let's put a Distance value in here & let them figure out between what". Usually it's obvious, but not always.

    Got a render going now & really glad to get this one thing working correctly now. Using a Spot just gave too harsh of window pattern & the IES was too blurred w/ no control over that. The enviro light pattern cast now looks proper.

    Gonna take a further look at your new thread when I get back to my Western scene.
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  4. #19
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ma3rk;1590367]
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post



    Gonna take a further look at your new thread when I get back to my Western scene.
    Looking forward to that western scene

  5. #20
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Well, here's a preview to get ya thinking ...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cowboy Jo + Crows.jpg 
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ID:	147236
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  6. #21
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    My only thought is: Would the surfaces really be that level of weathering so much closer to their time of construction?

    Just a minor nit, but it caught my eye. Really nice detailing throughout, btw.

    I'd kind of expect the wood to show some sign of treatment/paint within a couple years in its past. If that wood never received any surface treatment ever (which wasn't typical even back then), that wood would be gray and disintegrating within just a couple years, show significant rust stains all over from iron nails degrading, etc.
    Last edited by jwiede; 04-07-2020 at 07:54 PM.
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  7. #22
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    My only thought is: Would the surfaces really be that level of weathering so much closer to their time of construction?

    I'd kind of expect the wood to show some sign of treatment/paint within a couple years in its past. If that wood never received any surface treatment ever (which wasn't typical even back then), that wood would be gray and disintegrating within just a couple years, show significant rust stains all over from iron nails degrading, etc.
    Ah, well. It's all a bit of fantasy now isn't it? Out in the desert somethings can be remarkably preserved. Throw a tint or desaturate on it and ...

    This is all starting from the original maps & I've been tweeking as I go.

    Here's what it started out as ...

    Click image for larger version. 

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  8. #23
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post
    Ah, well. It's all a bit of fantasy now isn't it? Out in the desert somethings can be remarkably preserved.
    That's kind of my point: That looks like old, once well-treated wood that hasn't seen treatment in well over a century (as you'd see in a current "Old West" site). Back in that period when it was "active", though, it'd look a lot newer and recently painted/treated.

    Aside, the lead-based paints and various treatments they used back then tended to actually protect and look decent a LOT longer than modern wood treatments. Nastily toxic in many cases, but very durable. That's why they're still around now, albeit in poor shape. Go back a century or more, and they'd barely show any aging.

    Anyway, it's an artistic choice, not really a big deal. I only pointed it out because I had the impression you were aiming for something "in that period".
    Last edited by jwiede; 04-07-2020 at 08:24 PM.
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  9. #24
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post
    Well, here's a preview to get ya thinking ...

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cowboy Jo + Crows.jpg 
Views:	41 
Size:	2.19 MB 
ID:	147236
    Nice, I can almost see myself entering that saloon, since I really donīt drink alcohol..I would be asking for either a coke, or a cider with pear taste and no alcohol...And there is when the other cowboys would start and laugh and mock me,
    then I tell them I am the right hand of the devil..and guns starts to fire off

    Did you render that image in daz ..I guess?

    As for the kind of fog types, whatīs your concept idea for that kind of fog, I think use it sparesly if any, and I reckon if itīs gonna be a little dust mist, it would be small dust particles from sand, and other minor tree dust debri that is flying around and is catching the sunbeams, as such its not any kind o humidity mist, or any other common fog..so it needs to stay low, and perhaps also a bit uneven with a texture on the fog density.
    So I fog item as I had in my forrest scen may work, I am checking that out right now with a crappy saloon object....but the question is how it should look from your point of view, do you have any reference image or movie which portrays that kind of dust..sunbeams?

  10. #25
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Nice, I can almost see myself entering that saloon, since I really donīt drink alcohol..I would be asking for either a coke, or a cider with pear taste and no alcohol...And there is when the other cowboys would start and laugh and mock me,
    then I tell them I am the right hand of the devil..and guns starts to fire off

    Did you render that image in daz ..I guess?
    No, mostly it was translated over from Daz with some adds from other sources or just modeled. The Daz cameras don't translate 100% but pretty close.

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    As for the kind of fog types, whatīs your concept idea for that kind of fog, I think use it sparesly if any, and I reckon if itīs gonna be a little dust mist, it would be small dust particles from sand, and other minor tree dust debri that is flying around and is catching the sunbeams, as such its not any kind o humidity mist, or any other common fog..so it needs to stay low, and perhaps also a bit uneven with a texture on the fog density.
    So I fog item as I had in my forrest scen may work, I am checking that out right now with a crappy saloon object....but the question is how it should look from your point of view, do you have any reference image or movie which portrays that kind of dust..sunbeams?
    Ya, dust & some debris blowing perhaps. Subtle & atmospheric rather than a storm brewing. No reference material per se but have spent a lot of time in the Oregon & Calif deserts. Think Silverado I suppose.

    This is a fraction of the set though. No particular plans for it actually; I've been slowly building & accumulating sets of all sorts to make storyboard stills for a short I'd like to do.

    Here's an over view of OldWest town:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	QwikByrdsEyeOldWest.jpg 
Views:	20 
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ID:	147238
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  11. #26
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post
    No, mostly it was translated over from Daz with some adds from other sources or just modeled. The Daz cameras don't translate 100% but pretty close.



    Ya, dust & some debris blowing perhaps. Subtle & atmospheric rather than a storm brewing. No reference material per se but have spent a lot of time in the Oregon & Calif deserts. Think Silverado I suppose.

    This is a fraction of the set though. No particular plans for it actually; I've been slowly building & accumulating sets of all sorts to make storyboard stills for a short I'd like to do.

    Here's an over view of OldWest town:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	QwikByrdsEyeOldWest.jpg 
Views:	20 
Size:	1.26 MB 
ID:	147238
    Uhmm..canīt recall silverado, probably have seen it ages ago.
    And no deserts over here..and I have never seen one for real, or something similar to a wasteland.

    As for westerns..all I think of is "how the west was won" (macahans) loved that series when I saw it first, and the scenery of the American Landscape.
    otherwise Terrence Hill and Bud spencer movies, and some Clint movies of course.

    The atmosphere you are looking for..I think Itīs doable with the global scattering for sure..but it also yields a very bloomed bright background when you are pushing it..it has no way of absorbing the light in the horizon...which normally often have some form of lower haze, or fog layer to absorb that light a bit more...vue and terragen can adress this, while this global scattering is just a volume light scatter and with no respect to the true nature elements otherwise, so yuo may need to set up your own additional fog layers.
    You could use a mix of both..I will try and show some samples of that.

    Or mix in post processing somehow, itīs also possible perhaps to simulate in blender a drift of fog, and use sparsely when setting up a vdb for lightwave..must try that for some scenery...bu then again you could also just use the volumetric mode for primitives.

    tommorrow though I think.


    Edit..yeah...I have seen some of silverado..not sure if I followed the whole movie, probably didnīt make that much of an impact on me though ..since I can not recall it..and I am good otherwise on recalling what Iīve seen.
    yep..see the type of dust.

  12. #27
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Uhmm..canīt recall silverado, probably have seen it ages ago.
    And no deserts over here..and I have never seen one for real, or something similar to a wasteland.

    As for westerns..all I think of is "how the west was won" (macahans) loved that series when I saw it first, and the scenery of the American Landscape.
    otherwise Terrence Hill and Bud spencer movies, and some Clint movies of course.

    The atmosphere you are looking for..I think Itīs doable with the global scattering for sure..but it also yields a very bloomed bright background when you are pushing it..it has no way of absorbing the light in the horizon...which normally often have some form of lower haze, or fog layer to absorb that light a bit more...vue and terragen can adress this, while this global scattering is just a volume light scatter and with no respect to the true nature elements otherwise, so yuo may need to set up your own additional fog layers.
    You could use a mix of both..I will try and show some samples of that.

    Or mix in post processing somehow, itīs also possible perhaps to simulate in blender a drift of fog, and use sparsely when setting up a vdb for lightwave..must try that for some scenery...bu then again you could also just use the volumetric mode for primitives.

    tommorrow though I think.


    Edit..yeah...I have seen some of silverado..not sure if I followed the whole movie, probably didnīt make that much of an impact on me though ..since I can not recall it..and I am good otherwise on recalling what Iīve seen.
    yep..see the type of dust.
    Well then, Leone of course, but the "My Name is Nobody" series is also one of my favorites. Picked up the 40th Anniversary Blu-Ray recently of the last one. Still a hoot.

    But, do yourself a favor. Silverado is truly a classic. Star-studded cast of then unknowns. Dialog at it's finest. Outstanding scenery & photography. It didn't win all those Oscars for nothing. Make a double bowl of popcorn & enjoy uninterrupted.


    There's absolutely no hurry on my end. This is probably the 3rd incarnation of just this scene since 2018 as I discover things & partially start over. I've a low threshold of boredom so when I get bogged on one thing, I jump to another.

    If you want me to try a skeletal setup import of your scene on this end, let me know. I don't have Vue, btw.

    Since you mentioned some other issues, here's an added wrinkle of sorts. It looks pretty good but is only 99.8% there.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The moon should blend fully to the sky color which of course is just the HDR I'm using. Works pretty well for most angles is a cheat & so far doesn't really like atmospheric/volumetric enables. Probably some gradient I'm not getting right, that sort of thing. I'm sure it would be quicker/easier as a composite.

    Ironically, there's a real moon on the HDR. Didn't notice it until I'd gotten my billboard moon working fairly well, so started using that as reference.
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  13. #28
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Thought I'd follow up on this as the past couple weeks have had some pleasant developments with converting assets.

    I've an extremely low threshold of boredom so tend to jump around a lot on projects as I think of something. The Old West Town was one of my first to convert so went through several false starts, several software revisions, new systems, a move, etc. so some discrepancies were bound to creep in.

    Any whey, I finally noticed that my instanced tumbleweeds etc, weren't there. Thought I was seeing them in wireframe, but not the case. Went back into the panel on the Terrain object, got them to re-enable (jeez, I hope that's one of the fixed things in 2020), and now I had what I was seeing probably 3 years ago.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    But, that then lead to another "Wait a minute! Wasn't I using ..." ah HA! moment, which brings me to a mostly gentle rant.

    <insert .mp3 of large box getting dragged to center stage>

    Ahem!

    For something as important as render settings, & to have options that interrelate yet scattered over any number of panels, then to have the Official Documentation i.e. the Wiki to ONLY have this as an entry:

    _______________

    ISBG Samples - Sets the number of importance samples for the image.

    ISBG can slow down interactivity in some situations. If you try to change the backdrop image with VPR active it must be recalculated every time you change it, so if you are going to change images, switch back to OpenGL to do it.
    _______________

    Is to politely say it, that just Piss Poor!

    Wow. I mean, that almost means something, but why not instead also SHOW an example such as this:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	147501 Click image for larger version. 

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    is frankly just beyond me when dealing with a visual product. It just amazes me how pretty much ALL of graphics software these days go to such great lengths to attempt to verbally describe something, instead of just additionally showing what the [email protected]$%%#que they mean!

    Why is that? Seriously: Why Is That? It's nothing new.

    And to go on, "Remember to disable MIS in radiosity and set surfaces to raytraced only ISBG Sampling"

    MIS is ...? Where? I have Enable GI.

    I just PHQUING hate it when people use a TLA w/o it being cited on the same page instead of assuming the entire planet knows what that is!!!

    A TLA is a Three Letter Acronym in case ya didn't know, so there!

    So I had to go back to the main Wiki page, search for MIS, & found:

    Light MIS Samples
    MIS Samples

    Some lights perform Multiple Importance Sampling, a more accurate version of the Importance Sampling introduced in LightWave 2015 that is available through the Global Illumination tab in Render Properties. It is more accurate because it is directly sampling the environment image, whereas the GI version is one step removed sampling the GI result of the environment map.

    Wow. Would that have be so hard to just copy & paste that sacred piece of info? I guess the server storage space was just too taxed; there might have been one less cat photo somewhere.

    To get back on topic, it seems you can have Sample Backdrop ON for the Enviro Light when using ISBG in the Render Settings. Otherwise it looks like...

    Click image for larger version. 

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    In any case, my point is why use a few meager words to mundanely describe what would really be SO much easier, quicker. meaningful to just show? And put it in ONE place so it's all relevant?

    OK, that's it. For now anyway.
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  14. #29
    LightWave documentation BeeVee's Avatar
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    Hi Ma3rk,
    Thanks for your feedback, and I agree that it's not great but I will improve it. Since you have great examples of ISBG can I use them for the docs? Full credit will be given, of course. LightWave 2020 streamlines the sampling for environments and lighting a little, and concentrates them in fewer, easier to find (and document) places. BTW, you can always use the Feedback Agent directly from the wiki pages to report a bug with the docs or request a feature.

    B
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  15. #30
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeeVee View Post
    Hi Ma3rk,
    Thanks for your feedback, and I agree that it's not great but I will improve it. Since you have great examples of ISBG can I use them for the docs? Full credit will be given, of course. LightWave 2020 streamlines the sampling for environments and lighting a little, and concentrates them in fewer, easier to find (and document) places. BTW, you can always use the Feedback Agent directly from the wiki pages to report a bug with the docs or request a feature.

    B
    Hey BeeVee,

    First off, certainly. Perhaps more of this type of argumentation could be done with user input. I don't have an immediate list but I've run across others that left me head scratching.

    I do miss being able to save off a chapter via the PDF tool the earlier Wiki had. That way I can make my own notes which I can't with the html saves.
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