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Thread: Embergen,VDB, blackbody, and fire shading in Lightwave.

  1. #1
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Embergen,VDB, blackbody, and fire shading in Lightwave.

    For checking out the fireshading and rendering of Embergen VDBīs ..I have to say that it looks good, some things to take note of though, which I will describe here down below..if you guys have other suggestions for the fireshading, please jump in and tell us.

    Renders decently fast as well...though it would most likely render much faster with a GPU solution, I havenīt checked this in blender but I will.
    Detail and fluid motion is also very nice, I can not however try my own sims since I am currently just checking pre-made vdbs and I havenīt bought in to this..yet.

    Simulation scale to match lightwave scale I would need to ask about on jangaīs embergen forums, and also...the fluid isnīt centered within the fluid container pivot, and axis is the same as in blender so you always need to rotate 90 degree, and scale the container down quite a bit.

    And now to the fireshading...
    1. using a blackbody within the main vdb node editor isnīt something I can
    see working properly as it should, It may be that I still have to learn or find
    a math node or curve node to adress the issues with it, often once using
    the vdb infor for flame or temperature and feeding it in the emission color
    it will yield blocky artifacts and also spilling over the general density of
    the fire and smoke..not looking good.

    And especially notable if you try to mix in the black body radiator between
    the vdb info and the emission channel.

    2. so what I do is to use the blackbody radiator directly in the vdb emission channel
    in the main panel of the vdb settings and not in the node editor, but I do that
    by adding the node editor procedural, and entering nodes from there, once
    I add the black body radiator in to that texture value input, it will work perfectly fine
    without overspill and without those blocky artifacts.

    3. If I am not using the blackbody radiator, I simply add a color gradient instead
    in the main vdb panel settings for the volume, you could actually do just fine with a single
    orange color, and enhance it with gradients in the emission scale channel.

    4. it all needs to be balanced with a scattering channel gradient as well.

    Conclusion...
    All this mentioned, wouldnīt it be better if lightwave could have the blackbody
    work within the vdb panels other main settings, sort of like blenders principle volume?

    or a black body gradient to choose in the layer system?


    Images..some samples with some settings for the shadings, can be tweaked to change the look completely.
    To note, this fire wall vdb wasnīt simulated to be in the style of an explosion, if I had the chance to simulate it, it would look soo much cooler with a proper initial explode blast, embergen is still a bit too much in the cradle for me though.
    Renders faster than TFD legacy, and gas solver...it seems, octane excluded from that statement.









  2. #2
    ack ack Markc's Avatar
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    Is it me, or are there no images.....?
    Mac Pro (2010) OSX 10.13 RX580 Pulse LW2020
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  3. #3
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markc View Post
    Is it me, or are there no images.....?
    I can see the images here..they were linked from google photos...could be a problem if you use a cellular phone,
    yep..I can not see them on my cellular phone either.
    Something happened with google photos that isnīt working properly when embedding, perhaps moving to flickr.

    Try a standard desktop computer.

    or check here in emergency case..
    Blah...


    didnīt work...

    Need to check googles linking, itīs a mess.

  4. #4
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Seems google photos no longer allows for sharing as embedded in forums, I believed this worked before, anyway I can see the images on my main computer..anyone else?

  5. #5
    Registered User tyrot's Avatar
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    no images

  6. #6
    ack ack Markc's Avatar
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    I have always just added them in the ‘upload’ section of the forum, and they are uploaded to LW account.
    Rather than linking to a url.
    Mac Pro (2010) OSX 10.13 RX580 Pulse LW2020
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  7. #7
    Super Member Qexit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markc View Post
    I have always just added them in the ‘upload’ section of the forum, and they are uploaded to LW account.
    Rather than linking to a url.
    That's how I always load images on these forums.

    I'm on a regular PC and I can't see the images you've posted prometheus. Just small 'broken' icons where they should be.
    Kevin F Stubbs

    Remember...one size does NOT fit all

  8. #8
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    I can see all the images perfectly fine!?

  9. #9
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markc View Post
    I have always just added them in the ‘upload’ section of the forum, and they are uploaded to LW account.
    Rather than linking to a url.
    I do that from time to time, but I can not stand the lousy thumbnails size in these forum, in blender forums it adapts a much better size..but here, horrible...that is why I often hack it by uploading the images normally as you say, then use preview before I post then open those preview images and copy itīs link, then paste back as url..that is how I get larger images when posting, but itīs also a bit tedious to do all that, thatīs why I tried google photos and itīs shared links..it used to work as I recall.

    Anyway, some of you can see the images, if you canīt ..you must be watching on the mobile, which I wouldnīt recommend anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Qexit View Post
    That's how I always load images on these forums.

    I'm on a regular PC and I can't see the images you've posted prometheus. Just small 'broken' icons where they should be.
    Aha.
    I will try and hack it..

  10. #10
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Ok..hacked it the normal tedious way..
    Noticed the jpg compression became a little too bad, I was lazy and did a batch convert with ACDsee.
























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  11. #11
    ack ack Markc's Avatar
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    Looks pretty cool.
    What sort of render times are you getting?
    Presumably you have just got the free vdb downloads, I see embergen is only Windows presently.

    I am viewing on my iPad.....
    Mac Pro (2010) OSX 10.13 RX580 Pulse LW2020
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  12. #12
    Super Member Qexit's Avatar
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    OK, I can see all of those
    Kevin F Stubbs

    Remember...one size does NOT fit all

  13. #13
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markc View Post
    Looks pretty cool.
    What sort of render times are you getting?
    Presumably you have just got the free vdb downloads, I see embergen is only Windows presently.

    I am viewing on my iPad.....
    A little preview render but with final render, only 3 samples so ergo some noise and low aa, need to up it to 10-20 perhaps.
    The container as I said was huge, need to check what kind of original scale they produced it with, scaled it down, the pillar height and also almost the container height is 10 meters height.
    Radiosity on, step size 20 mm, volumetric light samples (which is the first I always cange from 2 to 10 or above depending on) it makes a huge difference to remove grain in the volumetrics.


    Ivé been fiddling around with blender fluids as well, but it doesnīt yield the same nice fireshading when using emission channels, not sure what it is, I need to check blender output for that, I will first check some houdini explosions as well and see whatīs going on here.

    Embergen, if working as it should, would probably be awesome for simpler stuff, you can add a collision object dummy matching the tank, and perform forces or particle emitters to push the explosion within embergen, and get realtime feedback on the motion and fire as well, then save out as vdb, and render it all in Lightwave.
    But yes..can not test how smooth the workflow is, since I just used the firewall free samples.
    To note, I had not so much disk space left on the hard drive currently and a lot of other programs running.
    Asus Rog G20B i7-6700 CPU

    Iīm pretty sure it would be much faster in blender cycles with the GPU, but I havenīt installed the volume branch yet..needed for checking out those VDBs.


    The hdr took some seconds more than if I would use only a gradient, but then again..adding physical sky would probably up the rendertimes even more.

    See stats from the image..




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  14. #14
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markc View Post
    Looks pretty cool.
    What sort of render times are you getting?
    Presumably you have just got the free vdb downloads, I see embergen is only Windows presently.

    I am viewing on my iPad.....
    And yes, again..choose a windows computer for 3D mainly, nothing wrong with mac on the side, but if you do..you will loose out for much

    And as you can see in embergen, it reacts fast in realtime mostly..on my machine at least, but it can get a bit slower as well depending on resolution..


  15. #15
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    And how it moves..

    to much flickering in the reflection of the tank, need more reflection and camera samples and perhaps denoising.

    Changed the scattering a bit to be more thicker in end result..and more intensive red, itīs quite easy to change to have more whispy thinner edges though, and itīs quite easy to just go in to emission or scattering channel and change the gradients to make the blackbody redness, or color gradient redness be less pronounced at the top of the smoke, so it will be only more grey etc.

    Again, can not do anything to desing the fluid motion by these tests since I only used the vdb samples,thus the uggle big ball in the beginning.
    I will keep an eye on the development and pricing of course, but I need to see what Lightwave 2020 will bring, and also what else is done to
    gas solver, and what Jascha does with TFD...so a lot of unresolved workflows here.

    Aproximated 7min per frame.
    Camera samples 10
    Reflection samples 4
    Step size of the volume 30 mm
    Light volumetric samples 10
    GI rays 6
    Indirect samples 16
    isbg samples 512
    Some voxel data...
    Number of active voxels: 50,790
    Number of active tiles: 0
    Bounding box of active voxels: [74, 74, 16] -> [118, 118, 61]
    Dimensions of active voxels: 45 x 45 x 46
    Percentage of active voxels: 54.5%

    Again...what lightwave needs, is a black body channel either directly in the item volume mode panel, next to scattering and emssion(blender has it, TurbulenceFD has it), or a direct blackbody gradient as a layer to add in the emission channel, but it needs more, to
    control the blackbody a bit more, something like TFDīs black and white point for this black body, and a damper.

    This is a typical case of how they need to take back the great Lightwave workflow and not make it convuluted as they have been doing lately..with absolute node required tedious setups.

    As it is now..it is too clumsy to add through the nodes, or through the layer node editor, and also setting up contrast, brightess nodes to acheive what black and white point and damper would do.




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