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Thread: Weird Display Issue in Modeler (but not in Layout)

  1. #1

    Weird Display Issue in Modeler (but not in Layout)

    Hey,
    So I have been searching for hours to try to find if anyone has had similar issues, but I can't seem to. Perhaps I'm not searching for the right keywords. Either way, I have a weird display issue in Modeler. I see weird artifacts and flickering when two different polygons pass through each other. It can be seen in most of the 3d perspective views. I have a picture here of the issue in multiple display modes. This problem does not exist in Layout. I have changed multiple settings in the display options (legacy gl, turning on and off various display options, etc). Thanks for any help!


    Windows 10
    AMD Radeon R9 390
    AMD Phenom II X4 Black
    16GB Ram

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  2. #2
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Check there isn't any coincident junk geometry around the polys (or their edges/vertices) in question.

    Also, to really debug, you need to provide significantly more info:

    • What build/revision of Win10? (1803? 1903? 1909?)
    • What version/revision of LW?
    • If possible, which version/revision of gfx drivers? Or at least "latest as of when?"

    The info you provided is a bit too vague to check whether known bugs might apply.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.4 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Check there isn't any coincident junk geometry around the polys (or their edges/vertices) in question.

    Also, to really debug, you need to provide significantly more info:

    • What build/revision of Win10? (1803? 1903? 1909?)
    • What version/revision of LW?
    • If possible, which version/revision of gfx drivers? Or at least "latest as of when?"

    The info you provided is a bit too vague to check whether known bugs might apply.
    Lightwave 11.6.3
    Radeon Adrenaline 19.20
    Windows 10 (64) Build 18363

    There is no junk geometry. I could create a simple cube and a sphere, and once the two objects begin to intersect, this "artifacting" occurs.

  4. #4
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptfishstick View Post
    Lightwave 11.6.3
    Radeon Adrenaline 19.20
    Windows 10 (64) Build 18363

    There is no junk geometry. I could create a simple cube and a sphere, and once the two objects begin to intersect, this "artifacting" occurs.
    If you're talking about the "artifacting" while actually dragging one mesh section into/through another in Modeler, that's not really so surprising. OpenGL is trying to do the best it can with the overlapping geometry, but when they're actually moving, it'll show visual artifacts as it tries to deal with the z-order conflicts, etc. Moment to moment, moving, while they're intersecting, OpenGL will come up with varying z-order results for coincident polys, and that can lead to flicker as one jumps ahead/behind the other in z-ordering.

    Remember, Modeler doesn't understand the concept of "multple objects present". The way it passes in the geometry data for the overall set of mesh sections present won't always produce clean intersections between individual mesh sections (because they're being handed as if all part of the same object, leaving OpenGL to sort it out). Layout doesn't have the same issue, because it understands when multiple objects are present, and will provide OpenGL with the "hinting" needed to differentiate objects (and that allows OpenGL to produce cleaner intersection boundaries when moving one object into/through another).

    In Modeler, are the different mesh sections on the same layer together, or are they on different layers? If the same, you could try putting them on separate layers -- that might reduce the flickering when moving one into/through the other.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.4 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  5. #5
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptfishstick View Post
    Lightwave 11.6.3
    Radeon Adrenaline 19.20
    Windows 10 (64) Build 18363

    There is no junk geometry. I could create a simple cube and a sphere, and once the two objects begin to intersect, this "artifacting" occurs.
    I think I noticed an issue similar to this as well with a display in opengl and the wire not being presented right, which I think modeler 2015 didnīt have, but I dropped it cause I didnīt see it as a big issue, will have to compare again.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Remember, Modeler doesn't understand the concept of "multple objects present". The way it passes in the geometry data for the overall set of mesh sections present won't always produce clean intersections between individual mesh sections (because they're being handed as if all part of the same object, leaving OpenGL to sort it out). Layout doesn't have the same issue, because it understands when multiple objects are present, and will provide OpenGL with the "hinting" needed to differentiate objects (and that allows OpenGL to produce cleaner intersection boundaries when moving one object into/through another).

    This is not the issue. I am very familiar with how the Open GL "should" work in lightwave (and in virtually any other program). I have been using Lightwave for 18 years, and I have never seen anything like this. This is very legitimately an issue, so much so that I have trouble describing it, other than clipping artifacts. At distance, objects very obviously behind one another start to show through in weird banding artifacts. I have uploaded a youtube video to further demonstrate the problem, as the images don't seem to do the issue justice.

    View the video here.


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    Have you tested on nvidia card as well??

  8. #8
    www.Digitawn.co.uk rustythe1's Avatar
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    ive seen this on mine which is an Nvidia card, I think it happened in the most recent .4 or .5 update possibly after a windows update, im not seeing it on anything im working on now, but a couple of weeks ago I did, but cant remember what it was, I think at the time I spotted a scale error, im wondering if you have the same because your background grid doesn't seem right to me either, it seems to be too small and disappear with clipping, so there is a clipping issue going (I think my error was the same, Lightwave couldn't zoom correctly)
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    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptfishstick View Post
    ...Radeon Adrenaline 19.20...
    Is there a newer driver available?
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  10. #10
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    also had it sometime ago nvidia gtx 1080, used a simple toroid with not to many segments and wireframes was overlapping somehow, but then I couldnīt reproduce the errors...seem to be ok now.
    Windows 10 lw 2019.1.1

  11. #11
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    And suddenly ..it appeared again..just a standard head export from daz.

    Itīs not occouring in perspective view though, only back, side, front...tried checking perspective





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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    And suddenly ..it appeared again..just a standard head export from daz.

    Itīs not occouring in perspective view though, only back, side, front...tried checking perspective





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    This is something altogether different - a back face culling/clipping issue. It's been there for awhile now in 2019.
    Tim Parsons
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  13. #13
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Parsons View Post
    This is something altogether different - a back face culling/clipping issue. It's been there for awhile now in 2019.
    Huh, thatīs scary..makes it almost impossible to tweak a model, didnīt know that.
    But that was 2019.1.1...so not sure that has been fixed in 1.5 release?

  14. #14
    This is the same display issue that I mentioned here: https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...ews?highlight=

    For me, it's only present in LW2019. IMHO, it has something to do with LW adapting to hi-res displays (resolution scaling) since that was one of the features that was introduced in 2019. Modeler in LW11 - LW2018 looks very good on my Surface Pro as well as my iMac but looks like crap in LW2019. Adding insult to injury, you can't adjust the resolution scaling in Lightwave itself so, on my Surface Pro, the UI is HUGE and takes up a mammoth chunk of my limited screen resolution. Going back to the garbled OpenGL, the only real work around I found was using Modeler exclusively with a perspective viewport when in Wireframe Shade (or any other viewing mode that has wires over a surface); in orthographic view, I switch to colored wireframe or hidden line.

    I've reported this issue as a bug multiple times. Hopefully it'll be resolved in LW2020.
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  15. #15
    www.Digitawn.co.uk rustythe1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Parsons View Post
    This is something altogether different - a back face culling/clipping issue. It's been there for awhile now in 2019.
    yep, this is exactly what I explained in my post, and now I remember it was with an asset from daz, which wen imported to LW is the wrong scale (eg it might be KM instead of mm), and causes the clipping too early, note again the background grid is missing so it happens when the adaptive grid scale/zoom cant function properly, I found that when you get this zoom to selected also doesn't work properly on small areas, there was also a fix to do with background layer visibility a while back and this problem may have come about after that,
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