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Thread: Lightwave 2019.1.4 closes while rendering images

  1. #1
    Registered User elric957's Avatar
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    Lightwave 2019.1.4 closes while rendering images

    Hello,

    I created a simple scene but with more than 9Go of mapping images. Before to render a frame, the level of memory is 28 Go / 32 Go physical RAM + 3 Go / 4 Go Virtual RAM.

    If I start a render with a limited region 512 x 55 pixels from a 25% of full resolution (4096 x 1708), I can get the image rendering. If I restart the same render, Lightwave closes. If I restart Lightwave, it works once again until the second rendering where Lightwave closes.

    If I disable the limited region, Lightwave closes immediately from the first rendering.

    When I open the task manager, and I can see that the size of the memory increases until Lightwave closes.


    Has anyone ever encountered this behavior before? And do you have any suggestions for dealing with it?

    If you need more information, please ask.

  2. #2
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    Sudden shutting down without any warning or Windows crash report is typical symptom of overflow of the CPU stack.
    Default Windows stack size is 1 MB (one mega byte. 1024 KB), which is enough for all typical uses.
    Typical cause of overflow is infinite recursion.
    In ray-tracing algorithm infinite recursion might be caused by bug and too many reflections, refractions, and similar effect bounding rays.
    Perhaps you are experiencing it?
    e.g. what are Ray Recursion Limits set by you in Render Globals?
    Decrease them considerably, and recheck, and give us more information.

    ps. Upgrade to the latest LW version.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by elric957 View Post
    And do you have any suggestions for dealing with it?
    Identify which pixel of which surface of which object is causing it first.
    e.g. make duplicate of entire scene,
    start clearing up surfaces one by one to default surface settings.
    After every clear of surface settings, rerender to see if it still shuts down.
    If after clearing some surface effect disappears, you could find suspicious surface.
    Then reload original scene, and clear just this surface settings, to see if rendering works fine.

    Apart from everything what I said: disable 3rd party plugins e.g. Denis nodes if you are using them. Disable multi-tasking in Render Globals.

  4. #4
    Registered User elric957's Avatar
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    Thank you for your quick answers.


    Here are some more details from my render properties.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LW-Render-Properties.png 
Views:	68 
Size:	102.0 KB 
ID:	146753Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LW-Render-Properties.png 
Views:	68 
Size:	102.0 KB 
ID:	146753



    There is no polygon in my scene, only Null Objet converted in Shape or Volumetric primitive. It is a planet with surface, atmosphere, Haze and Clouds.


    Here is an example below in low resolution

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Final_Render_000_All_Small.png 
Views:	86 
Size:	535.5 KB 
ID:	146754

  5. #5
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    Beautiful render.
    I have made Solar System generating and rigging plugin, and Universe Simulator plugin (which is importing stars from database):
    http://solarsystem.trueart.eu

    If you would get it, it could be the best Solar System LightWave 3D project.


    Quote Originally Posted by elric957 View Post
    There is no polygon in my scene, only Null Objet converted in Shape or Volumetric primitive. It is a planet with surface, atmosphere, Haze and Clouds.
    I would start from making sphere object, just to see if it will make any difference..
    Then disable effects, one by one, re-rendering after each change.
    This way you will get to which effect or option is responsible for issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by elric957 View Post
    Here is an example below in low resolution
    So, it crashes just because of resolution?

    What if you would try to render entire animation at low res?
    Do you see during rendering out of memory symptoms?

    Memory leakage in rarely used tools is quite plausible..
    ("memory leakage" means that application is allocating memory and then forgetting that they should be freed (programmer forgot to free memory). Therefor reaching out of memory of entire app. High res could show issue immediately, low res could show issue after rendering many frames of animation).

  6. #6
    Registered User elric957's Avatar
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    Hi Sensei,

    I will look at your plugin in the following days.

    For the full story, I got this issue from maybe 6 month ago and firstly in Lightwave 2018 and then in 2019 version. It was under Windows 7 and even if I increased the virtual memory I still had the same issue. To be honest, it's the first time I've ever encountered a problem like this...

    End of last year, I changed my computer to someone more powerfull and moved to Windows 10. But the issue was always here.

    I also did the test, by replacing the null objects by real sphere objects and I still got the same issue.


    I will try the disable all objects except one and test one by one to see if that changes something. And I will do the same thing with render and volumetric options.

    Thank you for all of your feedback.

    I'll be back once I have news.
    Last edited by elric957; 01-29-2020 at 04:35 PM.
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  7. #7
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    If app has memory leakage or there is happening infinite recursion it does not matter how much memory is installed in the computer. It could have TB and still it would run out of memory..
    It would help if you would attach scene showing symptoms in attachment here on forum.

  8. #8
    Curmudgeon in Training Ma3rk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elric957 View Post
    Thank you for your quick answers.


    Here are some more details from my render properties.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LW-Render-Properties.png 
Views:	68 
Size:	102.0 KB 
ID:	146753Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LW-Render-Properties.png 
Views:	68 
Size:	102.0 KB 
ID:	146753



    There is no polygon in my scene, only Null Objet converted in Shape or Volumetric primitive. It is a planet with surface, atmosphere, Haze and Clouds.


    Here is an example below in low resolution

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Final_Render_000_All_Small.png 
Views:	86 
Size:	535.5 KB 
ID:	146754
    Frankly, for a space shot, a number of Render Settings you have here are really just pissing away memory. You DON'T need Radiosity for one and your Interpolate values are pretty excessive too & not needed if not using Radiosity. Caustics? What are you refracting? And Indirect Sampling on Volumetrics? Also most likely not needed as is the cache.

    Id try turning those off & see where it puts you.
    Earth can't be flat otherwise cats would have pushed everything off the edge!

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  9. #9
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma3rk View Post
    And Indirect Sampling on Volumetrics? Also most likely not needed as is the cache.
    Presuming those are volumetric clouds, they need both the radiosity and the indirect sampling (in the volumetrics settings) in order to get anything resembling realistic-appearing clouds (btw, 16 is the default value for volumetrics indirect sampling). Try turning either off and watch what happens with the clouds.

    They probably went with interpolated to try and reduce the resultant volumetric+radiosity render time (that combo is also painfully slow, as has been discussed extensively), and then (if anim) they probably added caching to try and reduce flicker resulting from interpolation.

    Atmospheric volumetrics, in particular, have become a bit of a "catch-22" scenario with the new LW render engine: If you want realistic, visually-acceptable results, you must turn on settings (and at levels) which yield painfully slow rendering. Many (most?) of the tricks circa LW11/LW2015 to improve atmospheric/volumetric render perf no longer work / notably help with LW2018+ volumetric render perf.
    Last edited by jwiede; 02-05-2020 at 06:29 PM.
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  10. #10
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Presuming those are volumetric clouds, they need both the radiosity and the indirect sampling (in the volumetrics settings) in order to get anything resembling realistic-appearing clouds (btw, 16 is the default value for volumetrics indirect sampling). Try turning either off and watch what happens with the clouds.

    They probably went with interpolated to try and reduce the resultant volumetric+radiosity render time (that combo is also painfully slow, as has been discussed extensively), and then (if anim) they probably added caching to try and reduce flicker resulting from interpolation.

    Atmospheric volumetrics, in particular, have become a bit of a "catch-22" scenario with the new LW render engine: If you want realistic, visually-acceptable results, you must turn on settings (and at levels) which yield painfully slow rendering. Many (most?) of the tricks circa LW11/LW2015 to improve atmospheric/volumetric render perf no longer work / notably help with LW2018+ volumetric render perf.
    I am pretty sure that isnīt volumetric clouds, thus as Ma3rk says, indirect sampling and radiosity isnīt needed for it, another matter if it is/was volumetric clouds as you say, from what I see it is most likely just the atmosphere/sphere that is volumetric.
    so a primitive in shape mode for surfacing and with cloud surfacing normally, and a volume item for the atmosphere glow..that I think is what we see here.

    Besides, even if it was truly volumetric clouds, at that level from space having radiosity showcasing multiple scattering in volume from that distance and with a mostly a view from on top of clouds at far distance, would hardly be visible anyway...that should be employed on earth, and when volumes are shown enough in order to scatter the light.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by elric957 View Post
    Hello,

    I created a simple scene but with more than 9Go of mapping images. Before to render a frame, the level of memory is 28 Go / 32 Go physical RAM + 3 Go / 4 Go Virtual RAM.

    If I start a render with a limited region 512 x 55 pixels from a 25% of full resolution (4096 x 1708), I can get the image rendering. If I restart the same render, Lightwave closes. If I restart Lightwave, it works once again until the second rendering where Lightwave closes.

    If I disable the limited region, Lightwave closes immediately from the first rendering.

    When I open the task manager, and I can see that the size of the memory increases until Lightwave closes.


    Has anyone ever encountered this behavior before? And do you have any suggestions for dealing with it?

    If you need more information, please ask.
    I've encountered LW crashing during rendering of hi-res renders on multiple occasions. I installed 2019.1.5 and have not had any issues with this on the few similar renders I've done. Worth a try for you maybe?
    Tim Parsons

  12. #12
    Registered User elric957's Avatar
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    Hello guys,

    First of all, thank you for your feedback, that helped me to reduce the time of rendering. But the best solution was to increase the hard memory (32Go to 64Go). I did it when I decided to upgrade my PC configuration. I think that Lightwave manages very badly the virtual memory. My scene required 36Go of memory, so with 32Go + some virtual memories, it should be enough to complete the rendering. Nevertheless, Lightwave still crashes. Now with 64Go RAM, no crash at all.

    You can look at some pictures in high resolution in my ArtStation page
    https://www.artstation.com/artwork/GakLE3
    Last edited by elric957; 09-04-2020 at 05:35 PM.
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