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Thread: Newtek, please announce LW2020 or provide another fix update for LW2019!

  1. #256
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    ...For now we have two external Renderer's, Kray CPU and Octane GPU, and that's some good choices...
    There are additional inexpensive/free choices with Unity and Unreal Engine.
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    There are additional inexpensive/free choices with Unity and Unreal Engine.
    Ooooo, yes... totally forgot about them!

  3. #258
    Registered User tyrot's Avatar
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    i just wrote including Octane render as an idea for saving NT's work ... They can buy and include KRAY too. Just do not invent the wheel.. please..

  4. #259
    Super Member Qexit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    There are additional inexpensive/free choices with Unity and Unreal Engine.
    True, but Unreal Engine is now up to version 4.24 while LW support is still only at version 4.23. I suspect we will have to wait for the release of LW2020 before the two align again. Still, there are a stack of Unreal Engine tutorials to work through in the meantime. There's even a competition running for completing them

    https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/b...ar-s-challenge

    Unfortunately, it is only open to US users
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  5. #260
    Registered User ianr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    Ianr, Not sure that really mean much.

    Final preparations into the release of LW 2020, could mean another 4 months. I hope not but maybe that's the reason for 2019.1.5.

    Of course then with only 8 months of the year left until another update many might skip it. This was always going to happen when you go to yearly updates, yes more money coming in on a yearly basis, but if i can wait 8 months and still update for the same price then maybe its worth waiting depending on what is on offer.

    Probably better to step updates, if you miss one year of updates then you have to pay say $100 more to update the next time. It would encourage more to update yearly.

    Anyway i hope everything i've said is crap and it comes out before end of January.
    In my world The glass is always half full -having survived serious illness, but enough of that!

    Johnnie: They (LW3DG) say there will be a 2020 LW release, half-a- clap please everyone.

    If you all take what has Lewis has kindly underlined on bug fix releases it (LW) is moving still.

    Regards to Modeler punch in the new LWCAD update & 3d Powers Plug ins ( if one can /or wishes to buy them),

    then you sure have got a powerhouse of a Modeler, both are gamechangers when installed.
    Last edited by ianr; 01-16-2020 at 10:53 AM.

  6. #261
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    They haven't released a 4.24 update for Unreal yet? That is dissapointing. It seemed they were good with the last updates being out pretty soon after the Unreal release. I was hoping they were planning to be on top of that.

  7. #262
    www.Digitawn.co.uk rustythe1's Avatar
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    well 4.24 is a big update, as its essentially the studio version, although it should all just be plugins, could have broken things,
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  8. #263
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    There have been issues for past UE updates as NT bundles the plugin to the LW release/patch schedule, not UE's schedule. NT'd probably be better off making this a separate project to support and release through the plugin database: https://www.lightwave3d.com/assets/plugins/
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  9. #264
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ianr View Post
    In my world The glass is always half full -having survived serious illness, but enough of that!

    I also usually am glass half full.

    Johnnie: They (LW3DG) say there will be a 2020 LW release, half-a- clap please everyone.

    I did not say there would not be, it states that in the blog post for the latest release. 2020 ends on 31st December 2020

    If you all take what has Lewis has kindly underlined on bug fix releases it (LW) is moving still.

    Without a doubt LW is going in the right direction, however if it wants to remain relevant as a complete 3d package modeler needs some serious love.

    Regards to Modeler punch in the new LWCAD update & 3d Powers Plug ins ( if one can /or wishes to buy them),

    then you sure have got a powerhouse of a Modeler, both are gamechangers when installed.
    I have LWCad, had it since it first came out, i also have Bevel ++, and all of the 3dPowers ones, however the underlying problem in modeler is the destructive nature of some of the tools. Bevels, Booleans especially all leave stray geometry if you don't it in certain ways.

    LWCad helps a lot but still modeler needs some help. I think modeler is much of the reason that people move on from LW. The renderer in LW has always been pretty good, even since 2018 its still pretty good once you know how to wrangle it. However the most criticism i hear

    is leveled at modeler.

    As i said i hope i'm totally wrong and we all get what we want. I remember Chucks survey after 2018 coming out asking for what improvements could be made to modeler, im hoping one day we will see these improvements and before i retire.
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  10. #265
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Good Morning Michael,

    Yes..interesting to hear that point of view, you know what...I never got in to octane for Lightwave, most of it due to a messy licensing setup which I do not like..is that your perspective on it, or is it the actual cost?
    To keep it simple and give my perspective... we have the potential to have 400-600 CPUs overnight rendering either Houdini/Mantra or LightWave without any additional licensing or hardware cost for the studio (only electricity). With GPU rendering, we would need to invest a lot of money to compete with that CPU-based rendering power. And, also, LightWave, in particular, is one of the most stable CPU based renderengines I've used, at least for hardsurface rendering. It is truly a production proven engine for that kind of stuff. I can put a scene on the farm and very few, if any, crashes accour overnight.

    With GPU rendering (in my case mostly Redshift), there is currently quite a lot more "problem solving and babysitting" the engine, which also adds to the time it takes to render a scene, mind you. This increases with the complexity of the scene/shot... That said, Redshift is heavly developed, so that might change fairly soon (the need for "babysitting and problem solving it").

    That said....

    We did extensive tests with both Octane and Redshift for Houdini before we made the desicion to go Redshift. Two things... Redshift resonated much better with the artists, secondly, Octanes licensing was, even at that time, weird and confusing. If Redshift is ever ported to LightWave (I highly doubt it), I will be one of the first to buy a lic for it. I do have a license for LW Octane, but I havn't used it much appart from some silly tests, such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3rU...ature=youtu.be Waaay back in time though... like... 6 years ago.

    Also, as mentioned above, GPU rendering is quite expensive. For each license of Redshift or Octane, the hardware and software cost has to be added (not counting the cost for the Windows or harddrives etc here). If I take Redshift for Houdini as an example.

    Recommended specs (for a rendernode, not a workstation):

    1x Redshift Lic = $500
    1x Houdini Engine License (can't remember the cost for it)
    1x NVidia 1070 with 8GB ram = $500 (you really should have multiple GPUs though)
    1x motherboard with at least a Core i7 or Xenon equalent, 3GHz or higher, 16GB ram = $500

    Total cost: $1500 (this without the cost for a Houdini Engine license)

    In comparsion, get a Houdini/Mantra or LightWave rendernode:

    1x AMD Ryzen 9 3900X Processor (12 cores/ 24 threads) = $600
    1x AM4 compatible motherboard = $80
    2x DDR 2400Mhz 8GB memorysticks = $80
    1x supercheap GFX card for display (if the motherboard doesn't have a built-in one) = $20

    Total cost: $780

    I just realized that that CPU is probably 2-3 times faster than my current workstation CPU (see sig).

    Oh well. Hopefully my perspective is clear enough.

    Oh and yes.. we use LW renderengine as well... Yesterday afternoon we rendered a 2600 frames animation in about 3-4 hours (LW2019.1.4) on 25 CPUs... 2252x940 resolution. Today, our Director said "This is more than perfect... I didn't expect this quality for the time given for the shot... ".

    So yeah. LW keeps delivering where we think we can use it most efficiently and when the artist(s) feel confortable about it.
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  11. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by ianr View Post
    In my world The glass is always half full -having survived serious illness, but enough of that!

    Johnnie: They (LW3DG) say there will be a 2020 LW release, half-a- clap please everyone.

    If you all take what has Lewis has kindly underlined on bug fix releases it (LW) is moving still.

    Regards to Modeler punch in the new LWCAD update & 3d Powers Plug ins ( if one can /or wishes to buy them),

    then you sure have got a powerhouse of a Modeler, both are gamechangers when installed.
    Yes I agree, It's always been the great 3rd party plugins that give the extra features and functionality to Lightwave depending on what users require for their work. For me it's LWCAD, OD Tools & the Denis Pontonnier plugins. There are still more plugins that look amazing that I would like to purchase sometime.
    Last edited by Nicolas Jordan; 01-16-2020 at 07:50 PM.
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  12. #267
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    To keep it simple and give my perspective... we have the potential to have 400-600 CPUs overnight rendering either Houdini/Mantra or LightWave without any additional licensing or hardware cost for the studio (only electricity). With GPU rendering, we would need to invest a lot of money to compete with that CPU-based rendering power. And, also, LightWave, in particular, is one of the most stable CPU based renderengines I've used, at least for hardsurface rendering. It is truly a production proven engine for that kind of stuff. I can put a scene on the farm and very few, if any, crashes accour overnight.

    With GPU rendering (in my case mostly Redshift), there is currently quite a lot more "problem solving and babysitting" the engine, which also adds to the time it takes to render a scene, mind you. This increases with the complexity of the scene/shot... That said, Redshift is heavly developed, so that might change fairly soon (the need for "babysitting and problem solving it").

    That said....

    We did extensive tests with both Octane and Redshift for Houdini before we made the desicion to go Redshift. Two things... Redshift resonated much better with the artists, secondly, Octanes licensing was, even at that time, weird and confusing. If Redshift is ever ported to LightWave (I highly doubt it), I will be one of the first to buy a lic for it. I do have a license for LW Octane, but I havn't used it much appart from some silly tests, such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3rU...ature=youtu.be Waaay back in time though... like... 6 years ago.

    Also, as mentioned above, GPU rendering is quite expensive. For each license of Redshift or Octane, the hardware and software cost has to be added (not counting the cost for the Windows or harddrives etc here). If I take Redshift for Houdini as an example.

    Recommended specs (for a rendernode, not a workstation):

    1x Redshift Lic = $500
    1x Houdini Engine License (can't remember the cost for it)
    1x NVidia 1070 with 8GB ram = $500 (you really should have multiple GPUs though)
    1x motherboard with at least a Core i7 or Xenon equalent, 3GHz or higher, 16GB ram = $500

    Total cost: $1500 (this without the cost for a Houdini Engine license)

    In comparsion, get a Houdini/Mantra or LightWave rendernode:

    1x AMD Ryzen 9 3900X Processor (12 cores/ 24 threads) = $600
    1x AM4 compatible motherboard = $80
    2x DDR 2400Mhz 8GB memorysticks = $80
    1x supercheap GFX card for display (if the motherboard doesn't have a built-in one) = $20

    Total cost: $780

    I just realized that that CPU is probably 2-3 times faster than my current workstation CPU (see sig).

    Oh well. Hopefully my perspective is clear enough.

    Oh and yes.. we use LW renderengine as well... Yesterday afternoon we rendered a 2600 frames animation in about 3-4 hours (LW2019.1.4) on 25 CPUs... 2252x940 resolution. Today, our Director said "This is more than perfect... I didn't expect this quality for the time given for the shot... ".

    So yeah. LW keeps delivering where we think we can use it most efficiently and when the artist(s) feel confortable about it.

    Thanks Michael for that detailed description.

  13. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    To keep it simple and give my perspective... we have the potential to have 400-600 CPUs overnight rendering either Houdini/Mantra or LightWave without any additional licensing or hardware cost for the studio (only electricity). With GPU rendering, we would need to invest a lot of money to compete with that CPU-based rendering power. And, also, LightWave, in particular, is one of the most stable CPU based renderengines I've used, at least for hardsurface rendering. It is truly a production proven engine for that kind of stuff. I can put a scene on the farm and very few, if any, crashes accour overnight.

    With GPU rendering (in my case mostly Redshift), there is currently quite a lot more "problem solving and babysitting" the engine, which also adds to the time it takes to render a scene, mind you. This increases with the complexity of the scene/shot... That said, Redshift is heavly developed, so that might change fairly soon (the need for "babysitting and problem solving it").

    That said....

    We did extensive tests with both Octane and Redshift for Houdini before we made the desicion to go Redshift. Two things... Redshift resonated much better with the artists, secondly, Octanes licensing was, even at that time, weird and confusing. If Redshift is ever ported to LightWave (I highly doubt it), I will be one of the first to buy a lic for it. I do have a license for LW Octane, but I havn't used it much appart from some silly tests, such as this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3rU...ature=youtu.be Waaay back in time though... like... 6 years ago.

    Also, as mentioned above, GPU rendering is quite expensive. For each license of Redshift or Octane, the hardware and software cost has to be added (not counting the cost for the Windows or harddrives etc here). If I take Redshift for Houdini as an example.

    Recommended specs (for a rendernode, not a workstation):

    1x Redshift Lic = $500
    1x Houdini Engine License (can't remember the cost for it)
    1x NVidia 1070 with 8GB ram = $500 (you really should have multiple GPUs though)
    1x motherboard with at least a Core i7 or Xenon equalent, 3GHz or higher, 16GB ram = $500

    Total cost: $1500 (this without the cost for a Houdini Engine license)

    In comparsion, get a Houdini/Mantra or LightWave rendernode:

    1x AMD Ryzen 9 3900X Processor (12 cores/ 24 threads) = $600
    1x AM4 compatible motherboard = $80
    2x DDR 2400Mhz 8GB memorysticks = $80
    1x supercheap GFX card for display (if the motherboard doesn't have a built-in one) = $20

    Total cost: $780

    I just realized that that CPU is probably 2-3 times faster than my current workstation CPU (see sig).

    Oh well. Hopefully my perspective is clear enough.

    Oh and yes.. we use LW renderengine as well... Yesterday afternoon we rendered a 2600 frames animation in about 3-4 hours (LW2019.1.4) on 25 CPUs... 2252x940 resolution. Today, our Director said "This is more than perfect... I didn't expect this quality for the time given for the shot... ".

    So yeah. LW keeps delivering where we think we can use it most efficiently and when the artist(s) feel confortable about it.

    I got in dec. 2018 for my very very old comp (i7 2600k) a 2080RTX and Octane sub. (only 20$ month).
    I spent 800$. Now you can buy a 2080Super, more fast, for the same (or less) money. If need a new comp, thinking to make only gpu render, you spend, as you said, around 1500$.
    To get the same CPU Render speed you need, maybe, a TR 3970 (if not a 3990, maybe the 3970 isn't so fast as a RTX2800) or a farm. How much money? and to double the speed? again a complete comp for... 5000$ or more?
    Yes, you have less problems on CPU and more memory, but for the speed nothing (now) is less expensive than the GPU render.
    Last edited by Wilfrick; 01-17-2020 at 01:22 AM.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    1x AMD Ryzen 9 3900X Processor (12 cores/ 24 threads) = $600
    1x AM4 compatible motherboard = $80
    2x DDR 2400Mhz 8GB memorysticks = $80
    1x supercheap GFX card for display (if the motherboard doesn't have a built-in one) = $20

    Total cost: $780
    I would not suggest to anyone to get a configuration like this.

    AM4 compatible doesn't mean the Ryzen 9 runs on it. In most cases for such a cheap motherboard, a Bios update would be required. Also these cheap boards have crap capacitors. The boards with X570 chipset that support Ryzen 9 out of the box are $200-300 or more. Also DDR4 2400 is waste of performance with the Ryzen. You should have 3200 or higher clocked RAM. And 16GB? Using displacements or large scenes can easily go way above 32GB. I consider 64GB the standard for any new machine. Then you should not use the AMD standard cooler for the 3900X for rendering (and 3950X and higher don't even have one included) in order to get good temps and high CPU clocks. High quality PSU, additional required case coolers, should also be part of the system to have a stable enduring render machine. You also didn't calculate a case and m.2 storage.

    My opinion and experience is: Buy cheap - buy twice.
    Last edited by Marander; 01-17-2020 at 03:07 AM.

  15. #270
    Time Traveller Andy Webb's Avatar
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    I doubt modeller will have any love in the next release

    Why release LW2019.1.5 with only a bug fix for the layers panel, that suggests that that is the only Modeller change,
    if Modeller was getting some much needed updates then the bug fix could have waited for the 2020 relaese,
    not least of which the Scene Editor in LW2019.1.x has a bug and no bug fix for that in LW2019.1.5!!

    I think Layout will once again get all the love.
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