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Thread: Newtek, please announce LW2020 or provide another fix update for LW2019!

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    My sense is that the Apple market for 3d tools has weakened somewhat relative to 5-8 years ago. No evidence...
    Yes my impression too. And no surprise, many years no pro workstation and now that it's out, it's a joke for current 3D apps.

    The slowest AMD Ryzen 9 Threadripper 24 Core CPU blows away the top 28 Core Intel Xeon.

    Even a $2k self built AMD Ryzen 9 Matisse 3950X 16 Core system offers almost the same CPU rendering performance as the top end MacPro configuration.

    Now the 64 Core Threadripper is released...

    For GPU rendering the MacPro is even worse, at least for now.
    Last edited by Marander; 02-08-2020 at 05:13 AM.

  2. #377
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    Not sure I would call the Mac Pro a joke. It is very expensive, but I am sure many studios will find the cost justified.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    Not sure I would call the Mac Pro a joke. It is very expensive, but I am sure many studios will find the cost justified.
    I meant in 3D rendering for small Studios or individual artists.

    For scientific applications, compositing and editing it can be a viable option.

  4. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    I mentioned fusion, davinci resolve, after effects, photoshop, krita.fractron 9000, Daz studio, Blender cycles..taking advantage of cuda, which I believe will be dropped by Nvidia...but then again, thatīs not 3D except for daz, and blender...but one premise was also
    that there was little development or willingness to develep for mac, plugins etc.
    Just for the record, Fusion and Resolve 16 now use native Metal very effectively.

  5. #380
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ELinder View Post
    Just for the record, Fusion and Resolve 16 now use native Metal very effectively.

  6. #381
    Super Member avkills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Yes my impression too. And no surprise, many years no pro workstation and now that it's out, it's a joke for current 3D apps.

    The slowest AMD Ryzen 9 Threadripper 24 Core CPU blows away the top 28 Core Intel Xeon.

    Even a $2k self built AMD Ryzen 9 Matisse 3950X 16 Core system offers almost the same CPU rendering performance as the top end MacPro configuration.

    Now the 64 Core Threadripper is released...

    For GPU rendering the MacPro is even worse, at least for now.
    I think you need to post some links to prove the 24 core Ryzen "blowing" away a 28 core Intel Xeon 3xxx CPU.

    I will not argue that the 64 core threadripper is a beast for CPU based 3D rendering; but the review I just read at AnandTech paints some interesting things to consider; probably the biggest is the fact that Windows10 Home can not handle more than 64 threads properly, so you pretty much need to run the enterprise edition of Windows to get the full benefit. Also the article mentions that the memory addressing is capped at 512GB (whether that is a CPU restraint or a motherboard restraint, article did not say.) Another drawback from Mac users is that Thunderbolt is very new on AMD systems and only works via PCI add in cards. Nothing other than Apple hardware (mainly the MacPro) is going to give you better USB-C/Thunderbolt integration.

    I did buy a 16-core MacPro and for me it is a gigantic speed boost. 2-3hour renders now less than 30min. However 3D is not my life blood for work, yes I do some but that is not all I do. I went low end on everything but the SSD (went for 2 TB). I will upgrade the RAM and GPU once the WX5700 is released and compared to the Vega IIs.

    Yes GPU rendering on the Mac is kind of a no show at the moment, but considering that Octane is working on a Metal version for the Mac, and the fact that the Mac Pro for around another $11000, can have a 4 GPU core system with 128GB of VRAM is pretty damn kick ***. Please link me to something on the windows side that can compete in price and total memory! (nVidia could surprise, I never count them out, and wish to hell whatever the rift is with Apple would end)

    I also kind of discount the price argument; everyone knows building your own workstation is cheaper; but all the Xeon based workstations from Dell, HP, and Lenovo, are all pretty much in the same price range as the Mac Pro (with older CPUs at that) and undoubtedly come with much lesser designed cases.

    And do not paint me as an Apple fanboy or AMD hater. I am extremely impressed with the AMD stuff; and Apple pisses me off to no end sometimes.

    One area that I think the new MacPro is going to be a game changer is the Media Server playout for live events. Millumin is hugely popular as a multi-output playback solution (and interestedly is Mac only); a bit early to speculate but I imagine the MacPro with a AfterBurner card installed is going to be huge for this application.

    *edit* Just went back to the Anandtech Article; it was Win10 Home that has the thread pain (I fixed it above). Below is a link to that section of the article.

    Anandtech article on the Threadripper 64 core.
    Last edited by avkills; 02-08-2020 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by avkills View Post
    I think you need to post some links to prove the 24 core Ryzen "blowing" away a 28 core Intel Xeon 3xxx CPU.
    Avkills, I will see if I find time for sources tomorrow.

    In rendering benchmarks, the 24 Core Threadripper is way faster then the 28 Core MacPro. A Ryzen 9 3950X 16 Core user even measured over 10k CB20 scores. With mine I get around 9.4k score without xtreme overclocking while the fastest MacPro scores 9.9k. First tests show that the Threadripper 3990X with 64 Cores has about 24.5k CB20 score.

    About Windows: I would never use Home for myself. But you don't need Enterprise, the right version would be Windows 10 Pro.

    I agree, other Xeon workstations (Dell, HP etc.) can cost similar to the Mac. The question is if the higher price and lower performance against a faster consumer computer is justified.

    The only reason for me would be if I need ECC RAM and a large amount of it (over 256GB). For scientific work or huge simulations that could make sense but that's beyond what I do with my machines, 64 GB RAM has been enough for me so far.

    For larger companies, workstations of course also come along with better maintenenace contracts and product certifications.

    When I mentioned a cheap $2k Ryzen, that's not how I build my machines and wouldn't recommend it. Instead I prefer spending a bit more to get higher quality and reliable components whenever possible. A well equipped complete Ryzen 3950X machine would be around $3.5k - $4k. Also I don't like overclocking but for who needs it, the possible is there in Windows builds.

    Don't worry about being regarded as fanboy, you're certainly not and your arguments make sense to me. The MacPro great piece of engineering. As I mentioned, for my day job I use a MacBook Pro, so I know MacOS and Apple devices have their benefits. But for 3D work I much prefer Windows.

    To me these discussions interesting, to hear why somebody decides for one (hw / sw) product or another and how it performs. Doesn't need to be a flame war.

  8. #383
    Almost newbie Cageman's Avatar
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    We have a 40 threaded Intel machine that is, mostly, outperformed by our 30 threaded AMD machines.

    Probably because the Intel machine is quite old compared to the AMD processors.
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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    We have a 40 threaded Intel machine that is, mostly, outperformed by our 30 threaded AMD machines.

    Probably because the Intel machine is quite old compared to the AMD processors.
    What does that mean?...whatīs the point of mentioning amd outperforming intel, other than just confirming it as a case...with completely different generations of processors...comparing processors released within the same year would be fair for such eventuallity of actually comparing...I would think, or did I miss something here?
    Eh...guess you guys were not comparing the processor per say, but some other technical aspects?

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    Out of curiosity is the Lightwave 3D rendering engine fully optimised to make use of the very latest instructions in both Intel and AMD cpus? I am not a maths guru but would having AVX512 and other newer instructons on my chipset actually make any difference to 3D rendering speed specifically in Lightwave?

    One thing I remember reading somewhere was that I think it was the Corona CPU rendering engine was leveraging the lastest instructions mainly by Intel to signifcantly increase rendering speeds.

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cageman View Post
    We have a 40 threaded Intel machine that is, mostly, outperformed by our 30 threaded AMD machines.

    Probably because the Intel machine is quite old compared to the AMD processors.
    As far as I know there never was a 30 threaded AMD processor. That would mean it has 15 Cores which is weird.

    But even then, like Prometheus said, without mentioning the processor models it doesn't mean anything.

  12. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBeckwith View Post
    Out of curiosity is the Lightwave 3D rendering engine fully optimised to make use of the very latest instructions in both Intel and AMD cpus?
    Good question and I guess only LW development can answer that. But for compatibility's and simplicity's sake I would tend to say no.

    On a side note, one thing I always liked about LW rendering is how well it scales and utilizes all CPU cores to a great extend.

  13. #388
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    Ok, here some numbers - note that the AMDs can be pushed much higher and even run faster out of the box then these numbers, my machines 3950X with about 9400 points and the 3900X with 7400 points. In the modo forum, one of the latest posts in the Ryzen thread claims to get above 10000 points in the 3950X 16 Core - faster then the top MacPro28 Core.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tec...dripper-3990x/

    AMD Threadripper 3990X 64 Core 24675
    AMD Threadripper 3970X 32 Core 17045
    AMD Threadripper 3960X 24 Core 13711
    AMD Matisse 3950X 16 Core 9228
    AMD Matisse 3900X 12 Core 7220

    https://barefeats.com/cinebench-20-mac-shootout.html

    MacPro 28 Core (2.5 GHz) 9944
    MacPro 24 Core (2.7 GHz) 9104
    MacPro 16 Core (3.2 GHz) 6859
    MacPro 12 Core (3.3 GHz) 5493
    MacPro 8 Core (3.5 GHz) 3663

  14. #389
    www.Digitawn.co.uk rustythe1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelBeckwith View Post
    Out of curiosity is the Lightwave 3D rendering engine fully optimised to make use of the very latest instructions in both Intel and AMD cpus? I am not a maths guru but would having AVX512 and other newer instructons on my chipset actually make any difference to 3D rendering speed specifically in Lightwave?

    One thing I remember reading somewhere was that I think it was the Corona CPU rendering engine was leveraging the lastest instructions mainly by Intel to signifcantly increase rendering speeds.
    I don't think it is, threads have come up before with all sorts of accusations, I think LightWave is in a small group of apps that doesn't perform as well as it could on AMD, when Ive gone looking for info on what could cause this the one thing I found is that both AVX and SSE can take 2 clock cycles on an AMD and only 1 clock on Intel, so if a software doesn't use a fall back or work around it will not be as affective, ive also looked into simulation work, again the AMDs can be bad for this because simulation requires access to a lot of ram which is continually dumped back to disk, again AMD usually only use dual channel, the more threads you have and the less channels can cause a severe bottle neck (in fact to the point where a small 8 core quad channel can simulate faster than a monster thread chip) not restricted to AMD though, I actually noticed it when going from one of my older machines to more cores when using bullet and things back then,
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