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Thread: 2019 is wasted time and money

  1. #1
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    Angry 2019 is wasted time and money

    Am I'm preaching to the choir here???

    I'm a hobbyist LWer. I make a little money on the side with various little VFX/Motion Graphics/multimedia projects and I've upgrade Lightwave pretty regularly since v7.5b... Recently, I went from 2015 to 2018, and then 2018 to 2019...

    I was sooooo excited for PBR surfaces, but it's been such a despondent process to try and get metals and other glossy surfaces looking and rendering properly that I just can't afford the time involved in getting everything right.

    Most of the work I do involves hard surface objects like buildings, aircraft, spacecraft, etc. and when you've only got a 4 PC renderfarm, going from 1-10 mins per frame to 10mins-2hrs per frame is simply ridiculous -- once you break out a big scene into multiple passes to render dozens of objects, what used to take 2-3 days is now taking a week to render...

    I used to be able to render with min/max samples at 3 / 9 or 6 / 12 and get decent results... 8 / 16 gave me awesome results in basic space scenes... I didn't have to bump it much higher unless I was integrating with landscapes and atmospheres in TerraGen... now even with min/max at 16 / 32, adaptive sampling: 0.01, and filter radius: 0.1 the image looks like crap. There's noise everywhere, fireflies enmasse, and render times spanning many days...

    I've adjusted rays and bounces and samples galore... stuffed around with Despike and Noise Filtering... changed all my lighting rigs and then changed them back again... converted all my surfaces to Principles BSDF and conductors and dielectrics and then cried for days, and then changed everything back to Standard surfaces...

    So unless someone can point me to some decent online tutorials that give me some exact render settings to get a reasonable animation quality, I'm going back to 2015...

    Or does anyone want to share their 2019 settings to render a basic spacecraft flyby that doesn't look like a disco ball?



    P.S. Therapy won't help... and I can't find a LW2019 Support Group...

  2. #2

    see >

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  3. #3
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Have you already gone through these videos from Rebel Hill? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...MnKF7-4W84I5Tz

    Can you share an example scene?
    LW4, 7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019, 2020 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  4. #4

    Have you already gone through these videos from Rebel Hill? https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...MnKF7-4W84I5Tz
    i don't think those covered optimizing for animation?

    might be covered here > http://rebelhill.net/html/rhlsr.html

    Can you share an example scene?
    yup, would help.
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  5. #5
    Wow, metals are amazingly easy to do with great results. Use bump maps sparingly and never with a value of 100 %. I typically use 5 to 10%. In fact only use bumpmaps if you really need bumps, otherwise control the look with the roughness setting.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagusOz View Post
    Am I'm preaching to the choir here???
    ...
    I agree to a lot you said. LW2018 / 2019 has a slow render engine which is quite annoying to configure to get noise and firefly free results.

    One setting you should check / disable is Glossy Reflection.

    LW is generally not the most intuitive or efficient 3D software and the render settings don't help.

    Also I agree, metals don't look good compared to any other PBR engine I use. If not seen any really good looking LW 2018 / 2019 render with metals. There is a thread somewhere about this with Gold material renders that also points this out.

    Edit, here it is: https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...highlight=Gold

    With some tweakings, LW metals / conductor materials can look ok-ish but far from perfect.

    Some LW users seem to see this differently and even compare LWs new engine with Arnold. I see that differently, both speed and quality wise. Of course LW has the big advantage of having unlimited render nodes which is great.

    Nevertheless the new LW render engine can produce good looking images in acceptable times with the right combination of settings in many situations.

    Maybe my thread here can help you with some settings:

    https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...ghlight=Sunsky

    (there are examples of render settings and test scenes using the new LW sunsky)

    Eventually you find settings that gives you acceptable render times. Otherwise consider getting a new Threadripper system or a good GPU setup with Octane. Or wait and see what LW 2020 will bring.
    Last edited by Marander; 12-05-2019 at 11:20 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    I agree to a lot you said. LW2018 / 2019 has a slow render engine which is quite annoying to configure to get noise and firefly free results.

    Of course LW has the big advantage of having unlimited render nodes which is great.
    but, when each render nodes takes ages to render?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagusOz View Post
    Am I'm preaching to the choir here???

    So unless someone can point me to some decent online tutorials that give me some exact render settings to get a reasonable animation quality, I'm going back to 2015...
    yeah, you are preaching to the choir Well, with me anyway.

    I had the same experience and I keep coming to the same conclusions, even though I really do want to embrace the new render engine.

    just go back to 2015 or if you wanna spend, consider octane and rtx gfx cards. it sucks

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    but, when each render nodes takes ages to render?
    All nodes with 3990X CPUs then LOL.

    Totally get what you mean, LW render engine is slow and even if you use a cloud render service you still pay more than users with other native PBR render engines, Vray, Arnold, Corona or the like because they are all faster and utilize less CPU hours then LW PBR renders.

    Well what can you expect, LW is one of the cheapest 3d software available. For its price it's a decent application and renderer.

  10. #10
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    I don't think you're necessarily preaching to the choir of all LW users, but maybe in these forums you are? Mostly annoyed and irritated customers post here, which is why I don't visit so often.

    Anyway... the renderer is a little slower, but the actual dynamics of using the renderer has completely altered compared to pre-2018.

    The old renderer:
    Set all samples to 1 globally and then let the camera adaptive sampling clean up the mess.

    New renderer:
    Set cam samples to 1 (adaptive off) and then make sure most of the noise is gone from reflections, lighting and refraction (and GI too)... then turn on adaptive sampling to smooth out the edges of the objects.

    I also find an adaptive threshold of 0.01 is WAY too low for the new renderer and the way it works. I tend to find 0.05 is much faster, and very little difference in quality.

    For space scenes, you will rarely need Global Illumination, and most of the time you could probably turn off 'Glossy Reflections' for most surfaces as well.


    I would LOVE for you to share a scene so we could potentially help you out!
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    I would LOVE for you to share a scene so we could potentially help you out!
    Definitely this ^

    I completely understand your frustration, but I also believe there are many very talented users here who can help get you on track to better and faster renders.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    All nodes with 3990X CPUs then LOL.

    Totally get what you mean, LW render engine is slow and even if you use a cloud render service you still pay more than users with other native PBR render engines, Vray, Arnold, Corona or the like because they are all faster and utilize less CPU hours then LW PBR renders.

    Well what can you expect, LW is one of the cheapest 3d software available. For its price it's a decent application and renderer.
    I am actually trying for that atm

  13. #13
    there is no sanctuary....
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    Definitely get the RH tutorials. You have to understand the new system a bit to get results that don't take an eternity. He covers analyzing different passes to see what needs to be adjusted rather than just blowing up the AA numbers etc, I've really found that to be helpful.
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  14. #14
    For me the only reason I use the Lightwave render engine is because I can still get good results out of it and I use LWCAD for modeling so it is the most practical and easiest route for me to render at the moment. I do have to agree it is slower now since 2018 release. On average I would say it's about 3 times slower for most renders. I have purchased the Rebel Hill tutorials and they are really good and explain everything very well but even if you know everything there is to know you will still have slower renders than before in most cases if you don't want to cut corners on quality. And yes sometimes fireflies can still be a huge issue but they are in most other engines like this as well.

    I do advise you to get the Rebel Hill tutorials and if that doesn't help you then in my opinion you have tried everything. http://www.rebelhill.net/html/rhlsr.html

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