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Thread: A message for those still holding on to LW 2015....

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    The main issue (IMO) isn't about whether LW2019 renders are better, it's about Newtek addressing the 9000lb elephant in the corner: Efficient legacy content migration.

    Forcing customers to manually resurface all their legacy content isn't a efficient or even tolerable solution for those with substantial content libraries, esp. given "Standard" material's render stability problems. Customers have even cited content migration as an issue multiple times, yet nothing has really improved.

    Meh.
    yeah I run into this daily, its a real pain. I wish it would load and save lwo2
    it would also improve compatibility with a lot of other apps that use lwo 2 only.
    then there are 3d models purchased online.. same issue

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    yeah I run into this daily, its a real pain. I wish it would load and save lwo2
    it would also improve compatibility with a lot of other apps that use lwo 2 only.
    then there are 3d models purchased online.. same issue
    Guess I have been pretty lucky; most of my legacy content was pretty easily re-surfaced, although to be fair, I had already been using nodes for all of my surfacing.

    UV textures for me worked pretty much the same as always, and just out of habit from working with other 3d programs, I always created the specular and normal maps I needed. For downloaded assets, I already had the maps even if I didn't use them all.

    Translating from standard to PBSDF was pretty easy for me, and like many others commenting here, the payoff in terms of render quality and ease of lighting setup, etc., was huge.

    It was a big relief not to have to jump through hoops to get surfaces that looked like what they were supposed to look like under X lighting conditions.

  3. #33
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertoortiz View Post
    I wonder if this experience is shared by others.
    If your workflow depend on LScripts, the upgrade could become a problem to you because of depricated commands.

    Switching to Python is no fun (and too expensive) when you need to transcode 45k+ lines of code.

  4. #34
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    The main issue (IMO) isn't about whether LW2019 renders are better, it's about Newtek addressing the 9000lb elephant in the corner: Efficient legacy content migration.

    Forcing customers to manually resurface all their legacy content isn't a efficient or even tolerable solution for those with substantial content libraries, esp. given "Standard" material's render stability problems. Customers have even cited content migration as an issue multiple times, yet nothing has really improved.

    Meh.
    When the OLD and legacy way of texturing, with ancient shader models cannot convert to PBR, or anywhere near close... then how would you automate it?

    Autodesk didn't do this to convert Mental Ray shaders to Arnold, or even Standard shaders to Arnold... so I'm not sure why you'd expect Newtek to do this for LightWave. It's an almost impossible task.

    As Tim says, the RMB convert to layered works okay... but it's simply easier to manually edit old materials. You can tear most stuff out, as it was usually attempting to make things PBR that weren't in old LW.
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  5. #35
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Parsons View Post
    The convert layered to principal command does a decent enough job.
    Which command you mean, precisely? Is that how it's labeled, or is that the actual command?

    At least in my (freshly-reinstalled) LW2019.1.4 Layout, there's no such command under ctrl-space or as part of menus in menu editor. Searching in docs.lightwave3d.com yielded no results either. Are you certain it's a native command?

    BTW, any approach that requires manually loading in scenes, followed by manually converting surfaces one by one (even if just a single-click operation) scales spectacularly poorly. Any per-scene/per-surface/per-object required manual interaction kills scalability for obvious reasons. The approach provided by Newtek falls into that category.
    Last edited by jwiede; 11-27-2019 at 12:36 PM.
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  6. #36
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Which command you mean, precisely? Is that how it's labeled, or is that the actual command?

    At least in my LW2019.1.4 Layout, there's no such command under ctrl-space or as part of menus in menu editor.
    In the Surface Editor, if you RMB a surface there's a "Convert to Layered Nodes" button.

    It doesn't convert your textures into full PBR materials (as that's nearly impossible).
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  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Which command you mean, precisely? Is that how it's labeled, or is that the actual command?

    At least in my (freshly-reinstalled) LW2019.1.4 Layout, there's no such command under ctrl-space or as part of menus in menu editor. Searching in docs.lightwave3d.com yielded no results either. Are you certain it's a native command?

    BTW, any approach that requires manually loading in scenes, followed by manually converting surfaces one by one (even if just a single-click operation) scales spectacularly poorly. Any per-scene/per-surface/per-object required manual interaction kills scalability for obvious reasons. The approach provided by Newtek falls into that category.
    Answered by lardbros. And in addition - you can multiselect every surface and it converts them all at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    In the Surface Editor, if you RMB a surface there's a "Convert to Layered Nodes" button.

    It doesn't convert your textures into full PBR materials (as that's nearly impossible).
    The only thing it really misses is not turning on Glossy Reflections, but you can multiselect for that too.
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  8. #38
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    In the Surface Editor, if you RMB a surface there's a "Convert to Layered Nodes" button.

    It doesn't convert your textures into full PBR materials (as that's nearly impossible).
    Been using it a couple of times, though I would like to have an option to choose another type of image node, when you convert, any image texture will be connected as a color layer node, instead of the specific image node, so you can not plug the same outputs from the image in to proper pbr channels.
    But in some cases you may want it as a color layer node anyway.

  9. #39
    LightWave documentation BeeVee's Avatar
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    And btw. it is in the Surface Editor section under node conversion. Perhaps I need to make that clearer:

    https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display...NodeConversion

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  10. #40

    it's fine, people are simply not that aware of it i think.
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  11. #41
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    Retaining Standard materials and saving in the LWO 2015.3 format would be advantageous, so you don't trash existing content and can render without modification. Not everything requires a full pbr setup

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    Not everything requires a full pbr setup
    True that, but non PBR is possible with the new shading system.

    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    Retaining Standard materials and saving in the LWO 2015.3 format would be advantageous, so you don't trash existing content and can render without modification.
    We didn't trash existing content at all, we simply made a new folder called Objects\xxxxxxxxxx-PBR and left all the old content alone in its own folder. And when we pull old content into 2019 we just save it to the new PBR folder which has the exact same file structure as the non-PBR folder. Object files are pretty small in the scheme of things and file space is cheap. The images/textures associated with the objects are left alone. If you really want to make an outstanding render with older content you'll want to build a new surface, if you just want to get something done quick you can use the Convert Layered to Principled Node command. And if you have an old project that a client needs additional renders - well then fire up an older version of LW. (At least NT allows that unlike other nameless entities!) The shading is fantastic. I was never able to get anything that approached realism with the old system, now I'd say I'm 90% there. While I have some gripes about the speed of the renderer (and a few niggles about more of a nodal workflow required now) there is no doubt that creating realistic materials/surfaces are much easier and faster now, plus objects can be dropped in different scenes without the need to modify their materials!
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  13. #43
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    good to know, i’ll try something similar. wouldn’t it be great if lwo2 and lwo3 had a different suffix?

    unfortunately i’m finding the 2019 render engine unbearably slow. I think octane or a blindingly fast cpu is mandatory.

    here’s hoping the 2020 version is much improved.
    Last edited by gar26lw; 12-05-2019 at 09:15 AM.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    i’m finding the 2019 render engine unbearably slow. I think octane or a blindingly fast cpu is mandatory.

    here’s hoping the 2020 version is much improved.
    Yes -its not the speediest for sure, but keep in mind that the default setup has GI turned on by default and all things considered I think it is somewhat faster than 2015 with similar settings. (Albeit its really hard to compare because they are so different) Bottom line and back to more of the topic - any LWer who hasn't upgraded is really missing out. There is much more to 2019 than meets the eye. The ctr - space bar for instance. Simply genius! Of all the 3D apps out there LW is probably the easiest to learn, in part because of the split nature and also because the development has been rather slow so it doesn't suffer from a lot of bloated features. I'm a Modo 601 user and recently downloaded the trial of 13.2 - I can't do anything in it other than the usual modeling. The fusion thing, rendering, and anything else - forget it - way too much crap. I guess LW is growing at my pace.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    good to know, i’ll try something similar. wouldn’t it be great if lwo2 and lwo3 had a different suffix?

    unfortunately i’m finding the 2019 render engine unbearably slow. I think octane or a blindingly fast cpu is mandatory.

    here’s hoping the 2020 version is much improved.
    I would SUGGEST for the LW developer team to look into what Renderman and VRay are doing terms of rendering. A hybrid approach CPU ad GPU rendering.
    This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government, CG Networks or CGTALK.com. The opinions expressed on this posting are on my own volition.

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