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Thread: Enhancing the Preview feature to evolve to GPU rendering

  1. #16
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    I'd recommend someone take a look at some of the stuff in https://renderman.pixar.com/whats-new

  2. #17
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    just got frustrated exactly this moment about vpr not able to be paused, I had it refine some nice cirrus clouds, and yes..I need to let VPR refine it, not final renders for the artistic control, so it was refined to a decent level, then I was about to tidy nodes in the window I worked in for the procedural node texturing, and the VPR started to refresh again, I was planning on taking a screenshot of both the nodes and the vpr window....so this is an example of some frustration of not being able to pause the vpr.

    you really have to be extra careful about doing something else with tweaking settings.

  3. #18
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    I'd recommend someone take a look at some of the stuff in https://renderman.pixar.com/whats-new
    Is there a specific feature on that page that would translate to an enhancement of our Preview feature and evolve LW towards GPU rendering?

  4. #19
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    just got frustrated exactly this moment about vpr not able to be paused, I had it refine some nice cirrus clouds, and yes..I need to let VPR refine it, not final renders for the artistic control, so it was refined to a decent level, then I was about to tidy nodes in the window I worked in for the procedural node texturing, and the VPR started to refresh again, I was planning on taking a screenshot of both the nodes and the vpr window....so this is an example of some frustration of not being able to pause the vpr.

    you really have to be extra careful about doing something else with tweaking settings.
    Maybe it's possible to add a VPR mode that updates only the modified materials in VPR.
    Not only for a viewport VPR but also for the entire existing Preview.

  5. #20
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    Is there a specific feature on that page that would translate to an enhancement of our Preview feature and evolve LW towards GPU rendering?
    There are a couple things mentioned which would enhance LW's Preview feature (f.e. see their mentions around always-live rendering). There's a lot of tech in PR22 around how render caching is handled that would be as useful for LW VPR, to cite one.

    You do understand that the "Show OpenGL UI" stuff in and of itself has next-to-nothing to do with "GPU rendering", right? The OpenGL UI mention comes from the existing viewport tech using OpenGL, and thus "show OpenGL UI" is referring to running the viewport OpenGL UI code to draw atop the VPR-rendered surface(s) (in OGL terms). Sure, the GPU is involved in doing the OpenGL drawing, but the "rendered image" that's being drawn "behind" the OpenGL UI is still entirely done using LW's render engine (CPU).
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.4 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 980ti

  6. #21
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    I think I should explain what "in the direction of GPU rendering" from my first post means to me because I'm not aiming for a GPU renderer that rivals the Lightwave CPU renderer.

    I can live with a slow CPU renderer for final output.
    For previews during various production stages, a fast OpenGL renderer will be good enough to generate previews but
    it still needs to look as good as possible and it still must be generated as easy as possible.

    Implementing a production ready GPU renderer remains the holy grail but I don't expect that to happen in 2020.
    Enhancing the available tools would put less pressure on developers.

    In LW2019 and earlier, my only option to generate OpenGL video clips is the Preview system but this workflow has issues.

    Another example of one of those issues: Anti Aliasing GPU setting is usually kept low or off when working in Layout. For rendering GPU AA should be turned on. Yes, I could change this setting in the nvidia control panel, then render, then turn if off again, but that flow conflicts with my goal "as easy as possible".

    Since the "lock to the camera resolution" feature is already there ("Undock Preview Win" and "Use Camera Resolution"), using an Undocked Preview Window seems logical, but manually disabling all OpenGL handles (cages, paths, grid, ...), resizing, cropping, transcoding, is not exactly "as easy as possible". It's cumbersome. It would be logical to implement "Hide OpenGL UI" also in that part of the Layout code.
    Also, the Undocked Preview Window is difficult to use with a larger-than-display resolution when all the controls are off-screen, and you need to close the Undocked Preview Window before continue editing - this makes it barely practical to use it as a reference.

    So what relatively simple improvements should Newtek add to the Preview system
    to generate OpenGL clips that look "as good as possible" for your clients
    and "as easy as possible" for you?
    Last edited by vncnt; 11-20-2019 at 07:55 AM.

  7. #22
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    I'm on Radeon, so my question is, is it just me? Does PBRGLSL VPR work for everyone else, correctly, I mean?

  8. #23
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Can you give more details about the problem?
    And the age and model of your Radeon card.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    Can you give more details about the problem?
    And the age and model of your Radeon card.
    This is all I get out of PBRGLSL, and I'm on mobile vega, or I can switch to the 560x (polaris) on an Nitro 5 gaming laptop, and I get the same results either way.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Dan Ritchie; 11-21-2019 at 01:52 PM.

  10. #25
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Presumably you have it set to display normal maps, as the scene annotation mentions?

    If so, agreed, that looks quite odd. Are you running recent video drivers?

    That's a 2019 content scene, correct? Which specific scene file?
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.4 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 980ti

  11. #26
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    Maybe it's possible to add a VPR mode that updates only the modified materials in VPR.
    Not only for a viewport VPR but also for the entire existing Preview.
    Perhaps making it simpler, I just need pause, and restart to iterate from the latest completed refinement state, just as blender does it, or houdini.
    Sometimes I want to save a scene, and it all starts to refresh again and I have to wait, it´s unecessary, and same with just a simple move on a window and it may start to refresh from start again...tedious.

    Worleys fprime was nice in that regards that it had just all that pause and re-start from the latest state, I am in fact a little baffled that they haven´t been able to push VPR further after all these years by catching up with what worley´s fprime did so nicely.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Presumably you have it set to display normal maps, as the scene annotation mentions?

    If so, agreed, that looks quite odd. Are you running recent video drivers?

    That's a 2019 content scene, correct? Which specific scene file?
    yes, Yes, and Dinosaur_WLK_GL.lws. I'm running Adrenalin 19.9.2

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ritchie View Post
    yes, Yes, and Dinosaur_WLK_GL.lws. I'm running Adrenalin 19.9.2
    Click image for larger version. 

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  14. #29
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Can you try turning "Faster Highlights" off? I've seen it, on occasion, produce odd shading when all the refl/refr/trans/lum are also active. Never quite pinned down what was going on, though.

    I do know there used to be an issue with how many channels you could have enabled even with GLSL, but I'm not sure if that still applies with PBRGLSL or not. Might want to disable all but, say, Normal Map and Specularity, and then post how it looks? The docs definitely seem to indicate multi-texturing has limits with how many textures can be shown in channels.

    Also, does the material for "Dinosaur"-aka-Gojira have anythinhg actually in emission / "Luminosity Channel"? If not, then there's no reason for it to be active. Likewise, unless you have a texture feeding in transparency, there's no reason for Transparency Channel. If there's no transparency, period, then no reason for "Transparency" to be active either.

    Just things to try, cutting it down to what's needed also helps remove variables from debugging.
    Last edited by jwiede; 11-21-2019 at 06:05 PM.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.4 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),32GB RAM, NV 980ti

  15. #30
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Perhaps making it simpler, I just need pause, and restart to iterate from the latest completed refinement state, just as blender does it, or houdini.
    Sometimes I want to save a scene, and it all starts to refresh again and I have to wait, it´s unecessary, and same with just a simple move on a window and it may start to refresh from start again...tedious.

    Worleys fprime was nice in that regards that it had just all that pause and re-start from the latest state, I am in fact a little baffled that they haven´t been able to push VPR further after all these years by catching up with what worley´s fprime did so nicely.
    I agree with a VPR pause button.
    And when releasing the pause status VPR should continue, not trigger a re-render.

    May I suggest a second VPR button: "disable all VPR re-render triggers".
    Because even the smallest activity in Layout interferes with VPR.

    Ok, more ideas for OpenGL Preview rendering?

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