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Thread: Cloth FX or Bullet?

  1. #1
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Cloth FX or Bullet?

    I have read some old threads about flags and wind and come to the conclusion that thereīs a lot of confusion out there in the context of which way to go and use Lightwaveīs features to make a flag follow the wind.

    I have had a gap in my use of Lightwave but really needed to try a scene with a flag added to a GoPro film test I did.

    Iīve been struggling all day to make it work but somewhere I go wrong because nothing at all happens with the poor flag.

    Maybe cloth is too complicated too me and Bullet would be the thing, but I actually do not find any simple basic video tutorials on this theme and the Cloth FX lessons seems to miss a lot.

    I have been watching this and do not get it. How the heck did he create the noise curve for the wind? No information what so ever makes the tutorial worthless to me.
    https://dreamlight.com/create-waving...ve-3d-clothfx/


    I take a chance adding my scene file to see if anyone more skilled than me can see what I been doing wrong!
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    Curious

  2. #2
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I donīt follow you here, you asked how he created the noise curve for the wind, but at the same time, you already have one in your scene?...to change itīs scaling and offset, you need to double click on that noisy channel modifier so you can get the menu and values to adjust.

    But..I think you have set up the wind wrong, that wind (directional) is applied directly as fx wind within the actual clothfx mesh, thatīs not what You would want..(I think not)
    add two seperate wind dynamic objects, do not add it within the mesh itself.

    A tip...rename the two different layers, they are currently having the same name with only layer number difference, that is easy to confuse when choosing what is to be the flag and what is to be the pole.

    I would also subpatch the object, your isnīt subpatched, you can toggle that on either in modeler (tab) or use modeler tools in layout toggle subpatch, but you may want to lower subpatch divisions first, since you already have a fixed division made in modeler.

    and yes..something is setup wrong cause I do not get it to work either, probably something in the wind collision tab where you do not have it properly assigned or something in clothfx...need to track it down, so much easier to get something going from scratch though.

  3. #3
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I must add, I think the tutorial and sample is a bit to complex for my taste...in the sense that it may use too many noisy channels in various places, not saying that it is wrong...it may even be the best outcome, but I prefer to keep it a bit simpler.

    I would use 1 direction wind with letīs say x direction going from left to right...and set that channel to a couple of meters, that will give a constant wind flow at that direction, but as wind gust, I would simply add a ripple procedural texture in the power channel, not the vector channels.

    Then I would add direction wind 2, and that I would turn off all vector values to zero, enter itīs texture channels and add ripple procedural, one need to get the right scaling of the ripple and speed though, but on top off that I would add another procedural layer (additive..so it wonīt destroy the underlaying ripple texture) and I would set that additive layer to a simple turbulence, you can vary texture strength and opacity.

    I use simple fixed pointsets as well, and use default surface for clothfx collision.


    And bullet VS cloth, personally I think flag folding is easier to acheive with more detail in clothfx than using bullet, wich often tends to get a more stiff rubbery look.

  4. #4
    Eat your peas. Greenlaw's Avatar
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    I used Bullet for flags in a couple of movies. It's pretty easy. There are a couple of examples on my old 'Asylum' demo reel at 2:38 and 2:48.

    https://vimeo.com/209695539

    What I love about using Bullet for cloth is that it processes really fast compared to ClothFX, and I think Bullet's results can look quite good if you know what you're doing.

    The trick to animating cloth with Bullet is to use actual geometry and not rely on sub-d. The problem with using sub-d is that Bullet animates at the cage level and not the sub-d level. A while back, I posted the following example in another thread here to illustrate this point:

    https://vimeo.com/142009369/3e4271aeaa

    Here are a few other Bullet cloth tests I threw together years ago.

    By request, this was quick test I made of a skirt attached to a moving character:

    https://vimeo.com/142006826/8fc3451d53

    Another request, a demo of Bullet creating credible folds in a shirt sleeve. This one also shows how quickly Bullet can calculate cloth dynamics:

    https://vimeo.com/234184917/6bed0e4d37

    Keep in mind, these examples aren't meant to look great, just quick proofs I threw together to show how it works.

    Hope this helps.

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  6. #6
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Hi,

    I just found out how I could add a noise channel but to be honest I hadn't the slightest idea of what I was doing

    About the subpatch I first added a high level of subpatched polys but I lowered this because I thought the amount of polys caused the lack of wind. So the model I did send was just a dummy for you guys to use when trying to figure what caused the problem.

    Regardless of this I cannot make the wind move the flag att all and might have to start from scratch again... but the problem is that no tutorial whatsoever that is up to date with my version of Lightwave is basic enough to help me solve this problem.

    J

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    I donīt follow you here, you asked how he created the noise curve for the wind, but at the same time, you already have one in your scene?...to change itīs scaling and offset, you need to double click on that noisy channel modifier so you can get the menu and values to adjust.

    But..I think you have set up the wind wrong, that wind (directional) is applied directly as fx wind within the actual clothfx mesh, thatīs not what You would want..(I think not)
    add two seperate wind dynamic objects, do not add it within the mesh itself.

    A tip...rename the two different layers, they are currently having the same name with only layer number difference, that is easy to confuse when choosing what is to be the flag and what is to be the pole.

    I would also subpatch the object, your isnīt subpatched, you can toggle that on either in modeler (tab) or use modeler tools in layout toggle subpatch, but you may want to lower subpatch divisions first, since you already have a fixed division made in modeler.

    and yes..something is setup wrong cause I do not get it to work either, probably something in the wind collision tab where you do not have it properly assigned or something in clothfx...need to track it down, so much easier to get something going from scratch though.
    Last edited by jaxtone; 10-12-2019 at 01:06 AM.
    Curious

  7. #7
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    I can agree of that the look is better in cloth but to me personally it doesn't matter since it's calm weather over here whatever I do

    Does anyone possibly know if there are finished template scenes with wind for an idiot to buy, just to see how they've done it?

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    I must add, I think the tutorial and sample is a bit to complex for my taste...in the sense that it may use too many noisy channels in various places, not saying that it is wrong...it may even be the best outcome, but I prefer to keep it a bit simpler.

    I would use 1 direction wind with letīs say x direction going from left to right...and set that channel to a couple of meters, that will give a constant wind flow at that direction, but as wind gust, I would simply add a ripple procedural texture in the power channel, not the vector channels.

    Then I would add direction wind 2, and that I would turn off all vector values to zero, enter itīs texture channels and add ripple procedural, one need to get the right scaling of the ripple and speed though, but on top off that I would add another procedural layer (additive..so it wonīt destroy the underlaying ripple texture) and I would set that additive layer to a simple turbulence, you can vary texture strength and opacity.

    I use simple fixed pointsets as well, and use default surface for clothfx collision.


    And bullet VS cloth, personally I think flag folding is easier to acheive with more detail in clothfx than using bullet, wich often tends to get a more stiff rubbery look.
    Curious

  8. #8
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Hi,

    Here we go again... please take a look at 2:40 of that tutorial and explain to me how it would be possible for an idiot like me to see what you are doing outside the video frame

    Oh well, that was actually from this tutorial I found out that there actually was a noise channel hidden somewhere in Lightwave's librarys and menus. But you know what, it ended up as a total flop since it wasn't possible to make any impact by the noise channel on the flag whatsoever.

    Could you be a little more specifik in how you connect the noise channel to the flags reaction in an easy way? It would help a lot!

    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    Curious

  9. #9
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Greenlaw!

    I really adore the skills you've got and guess you fought hard to reach the level you are at now. I have seen how you have improved and give you all respect for that. I've seen most of your reels and examples earlier and really enjoyed the latest reel I saw.

    However the tutorials you made a couple of years ago when talking about dynamics, hair and skirts just made me confused and lowered my self esteem a bit and I tell you why by an example.

    I have been playing guitar professionally for more than 50 years and have tried to take care of students, but it just doesn't work, not even with my own kids. I guess I have a problem to see it from the other side and really get into the deep of basics when showing how to do things. The thing is if I miss even a little bit of the puzzle its impossible for a rookie to understand how to solve it even if musicians at the same level as me doesn't see it as a problem. The best show off trick when performing either if it was with my guitar, airbrush gun or impressing on groupies was simple to learn.

    It was not to be the best or most perfect... but when it came to missing parts I know how to cover them in milliseconds.

    The last story has of course nothing to do with your ambitions or skills, it was more a early morning story of self critics of how and why I personally miss parts when acting as a teacher

    J
    Curious

  10. #10

    jaxtone
    it ended up as a total flop since it wasn't possible to make any impact by the noise channel on the flag whatsoever.
    But you didn't use the MDD file, right? cause that would apply no effect whatsoever.

    Try again, download the scene, without MDD, then go to the E for the gravity, then change the noise.

    Here we go again... please take a look at 2:40 of that tutorial and explain to me how it would be possible for an idiot like me to see what you are doing outside the video frame
    at 2:40 i did nothing, only showed the list.
    Last edited by erikals; 10-12-2019 at 03:05 AM.
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  11. #11
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Erikals!

    Thanks, I will try that in a bit...

    but at 2:40 only half of the list is shown in my browser
    Curious

  12. #12
    Super Member XswampyX's Avatar
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    Here's bullet.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Flag_Long.jpg 
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    Scene.
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  13. #13
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    A basic "flag" without a pole or anything, just fixed pointset for the edge points to not be affected by clothfx, then used defualt surface for collision detect.
    Also..added a gravity dynamic (oldFX)
    for the directional wind, in the vector tab I then apply the noise envelope in the envelope channels "E" accessing that, you will find three menu tabs, curves, expressions, modifiers...I click the modifier tab, then add the modifier noisychannel from the drop add modifier drop down list.

    the noisy channel will automaticly assign to corresponding channel that you clicked on, now..important to double click on the noisy channel ..otherwise the settings for the noisy channel wonīt show up, they will show up to the right once you do that and you can control scale, speed, offset and phase.

    also for this wind, I increased the power to 1000 for making sure the effect is seen.

    Now this looks awful, and not exactly how I would approach it, but it provides you with a noisy modifier set up for the wind direction vector channels, you could apply this on to other channels such as power also depending on how to approach it.

    Iīll see if I can whip up a proper flat, I made a decent one some years ago.

    But meanwhile you have to make do with a basic setup without to much other things interfering.

    Lightwave 2019.1.1 scene
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  14. #14
    Eat your peas. Greenlaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxtone View Post
    Greenlaw!

    ...the tutorials you made a couple of years ago when talking about dynamics, hair and skirts just made me confused...J
    Hi jaxtone,

    Sorry, for the confusion. Those weren't intended to be full 'nuts and bolts' tutorials at the time, just responding to some post questions with examples. Also, I was probably still figuring things out for myself and just sharing what I learned along the way. However...

    Lately I've been creating actual tutorial videos for a 2D animation program I use at work, and now that I have a workflow and format for making tutorial videos, I'll think about making some for LightWave.

    Using Bullet is something I have a lot of fun with for personal projects and for vfx at work, so that's probably a good candidate for a series. Bullet is such a versatile tool with countless ways to use it, the hardest part will be deciding where to begin. But don't worry, I'll figure it out.

  15. #15
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlaw View Post
    Hi jaxtone,

    Sorry, for the confusion. Those weren't intended to be full 'nuts and bolts' tutorials at the time, just answering some post questions with examples. Also, I was probably still figuring things out for myself and just sharing what I learned along the way. However...

    Lately I've been creating actual tutorial videos lately for a 2D animation program I use at work, and now that I have a workflow and format for making tutorial videos, I'll think about making some for LightWave.

    Using Bullet is something I have a lot of fun with for personal projects and for at vfx work, so that's probably a good candidate for a series. Bullet is such a versatile tool with countless ways to use it, the hardest part will be deciding where to begin. But don't worry, I'll figure it out.
    I think you should begin with what you do the best, hair dynamics and maybe cloth effects with bullet..unless you got something else in your sleeve like a wobbly shark or so

    I havenīt used bullet for quite sometime now, but it can be fun to fiddle with..If you got the time, I have always wanted to get deeper in to rigging full body characters with bullet bone dynamics, or use ragdoll setups with linked higher resolution characters, so personally that is something I would like to get deeper in to.

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