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Thread: Terrence Walker Lightwave 2019 musings

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    How does that have anything to do with either the Blender Market place or the GPL and how does that make him a victim of either? Also, he withdrew his campaign to raise money after a single week. That sounds legit.

    Failing in a donation driven market is no different then a commercial one. Its not like he jumped into it and anyone changed the rules on him. People see half a million views on Blender videos or hear about Blender getting 7 or 8 million downloads a year and think its just a market ripe for the plucking. But a very small percentage of Blender users want to spend money on everything that comes along and this guy gave up after a week of trying to raise money. It failed because he didn't take the time to know his audience or the community.

  2. #77
    I read through that post you linked to after the announcement of that add on being discontinued and have to say it sounds very peculiar. Not only a single week attempt of raising money, but he didn't even post a link to the fundraising on the thread where most people were following the updates to the add on. Sounds like he wanted out of it to me. That or when it didn't produce an overnight deluge of cash, he decided he was going to have to do something else.

  3. #78

    It failed because he didn't take the time to know his audience or the community.
    agree.

    it is sad that it turned out like that, but in the end one can't blame the environment, it's like blaming the world for how it operates.
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  4. #79
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Following on Cageman's "free" comment, I've been addressing the overall nature of free software so I'm not stuck on any particulars.

    Yes, "victimize" may be a bit of an exaggeration (likewise, can we get that list of "300 other examples"? ) but GPL software development is a risky business for third party developers. It's rough even for original developers. Blender has been GPL for nearly 20 years but some of us are just now deciding that it is sufficiently worthy to promote on this LightWave forum. Go figure.

    I'm not knocking GPL. The majority of my work depends on GPL (or similarly free) software and I contribute code and cash to free projects. GPL development is ideal for those who need to scratch their own itch and don't mind sharing their solution...or for those profiting from services built on top of GPL.

    I suspect Cageman's question of "free" was on a different but similarly important aspect.

    Failing in a donation-driven GPL market is much different than failing in a commercial one. If a closed source non-free license fails, you can still profit from your efforts by selling the underlying technology (or at least deny your competitors from accessing it for their advantage).
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  5. #80
    Speaking of which, this stream came out today, about addons, open source and piracy. I havent' watched it yet, just starting to so might not be relevant but looks like its just the subject that is being discussed here:


  6. #81
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Yes, that is a good video for the topic. CGCookie/BlenderMarket is in the perfect position for merchant fee revenue without the risk of actually developing add-ons.
    LW7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  7. #82
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    Sorry, but no: terrible example. At the time when MB, after years of users suggesting that he put up a donation button or set up a patron, when he finally did he didn't post it anywhere, and expected somehow magically that MB users gotten telepathic powers.

    I had been wanting to support MB for at least a year, and kept track of his project via BA. And then suddenly, after six or seven days following him adding a sponsoring option, he closed shop. Hurt by the non-interest. He hadn't put any effort in marketing or even just informing his users on the major channels about the sponsoring option. And we all know it takes often months for a patronship to really come to fruition.

    Even I, who kept track of MBL, wasn't aware of that donation option until a week after - when it was too late to support him.

    After his message, which announced him stopping MBL development, was posted on BA, a storm of pleas and offers for financially supporting him and his project ensued, and he just did not respond to these at all. His mind was made up.

    If MB had backtracked, and continued development, I am absolutely convinced he could have made a nice living from donations and patronships. If anything, he victimized himself by his awkward handling of the situation.

    His own stubborn behaviour and unrealistic expectations resulted in other users continuing his work.

    And I agree with hrgiger and JohnMarchant: nobody is vicimized because of GPL. Developers are fully aware what they are getting into. And quite a few still making a good income on BA. Like hrgiger, I purchase addons on the Blender market. I could download them for free here and there, but what is the point? I'd rather have access to the latest versions and also receive support from the authors. And support the overall development of Blender.
    Last edited by Rayek; 08-27-2019 at 03:20 PM.
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  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayek View Post


    After his message, which announced him stopping MBL development, was posted on BA, a storm of pleas and offers for financially supporting him and his project ensued, and he just did not respond to these at all. His mind was made up.
    Yeah that's the other weird part to me. I saw many offers of people saying they would support him if he picked it up again. But as I said, I think his mind was made up and he had already decided on a different course.

    Kind of like several years back, I think it was Marvin Miller who headed a push to get some funding for Denis's plugins in LW because there was something about him needing a new computer. I didn't even use them at that point, but I knew how much other people relied on them and knew how important they were for LW. So I threw like 20 bucks or something at it.
    So people will give even if there's not something in it specifically for them, but you have to make the right case for it. This guy didn't put in any effort.

  9. #84

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Speaking of which, this stream came out today, about addons, open source and piracy. I havent' watched it yet, just starting to so might not be relevant but looks like its just the subject that is being discussed here:


    Damn good Talk.

    Goes for all Programmers / Sales, Not only that App.
    Last edited by erikals; 08-27-2019 at 04:40 PM.
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  10. #85
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
    Sorry, but no: terrible example. At the time when MB, after years of users suggesting that he put up a donation button or set up a patron, when he finally did he didn't post it anywhere, and expected somehow magically that MB users gotten telepathic powers.

    I had been wanting to support MB for at least a year, and kept track of his project via BA. And then suddenly, after six or seven days following him adding a sponsoring option, he closed shop. Hurt by the non-interest. He hadn't put any effort in marketing or even just informing his users on the major channels about the sponsoring option. And we all know it takes often months for a patronship to really come to fruition.

    Even I, who kept track of MBL, wasn't aware of that donation option until a week after - when it was too late to support him.

    After his message, which announced him stopping MBL development, was posted on BA, a storm of pleas and offers for financially supporting him and his project ensued, and he just did not respond to these at all. His mind was made up.

    If MB had backtracked, and continued development, I am absolutely convinced he could have made a nice living from donations and patronships. If anything, he victimized himself by his awkward handling of the situation.

    His own stubborn behaviour and unrealistic expectations resulted in other users continuing his work.

    And I agree with hrgiger and JohnMarchant: nobody is vicimized because of GPL. Developers are fully aware what they are getting into. And quite a few still making a good income on BA. Like hrgiger, I purchase addons on the Blender market. I could download them for free here and there, but what is the point? I'd rather have access to the latest versions and also receive support from the authors. And support the overall development of Blender.
    Maybe a case of wrong stubborness, I was also interested in it, but in my eyes I thought it was still too much in development phase, then just a drop of it, I guess he should have had more stamina and marketing better, but ultimately his choice..maybe his private life and other work related stuff got in the way.

    Not sure what could have been better for him, develop it further..but with stamina and endurance and better marketing, or if his better of fokusing on something more profitable that doesn´t suck up his time.

    But all the work he obviously made on it..it must suck for him when it may have all been in vain.

  11. #86
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    I think MB Lab was predominantly a personal research project for Manuel. He kept improving the base meshes up to a very high level with each new version, and I am unsure if it would ever reach a level at which Manual would be satisfied to call it "finished". It is an impressive effort for one person, and I cannot fault him for his work ethic and the energy and time he put into the project. I hope I didn't come across as too negative about Manual, because I sincerely respect his work and himself as a person.

    It really is a crying shame how it went down at the end. Still, one of the advantages of open source projects is that anyone interested in continuing development of a defunct plugin is allowed to do so. And people did in this case. There is even a (semi-?)working 2.8 version. I haven't tried it yet.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    Following on Cageman's "free" comment, I've been addressing the overall nature of free software so I'm not stuck on any particulars.

    Yes, "victimize" may be a bit of an exaggeration (likewise, can we get that list of "300 other examples"? ) but GPL software development is a risky business for third party developers. It's rough even for original developers. Blender has been GPL for nearly 20 years but some of us are just now deciding that it is sufficiently worthy to promote on this LightWave forum. Go figure.

    I'm not knocking GPL. The majority of my work depends on GPL (or similarly free) software and I contribute code and cash to free projects. GPL development is ideal for those who need to scratch their own itch and don't mind sharing their solution...or for those profiting from services built on top of GPL.

    I suspect Cageman's question of "free" was on a different but similarly important aspect.

    Failing in a donation-driven GPL market is much different than failing in a commercial one. If a closed source non-free license fails, you can still profit from your efforts by selling the underlying technology (or at least deny your competitors from accessing it for their advantage).
    Good points here.

    However the development effort began, at some point most developers want to see a return on their time investment.

    I definitely agree with hrgiger and other posters that in the case of Manuel Bastioni Lab, the developer really didn't give the community or his users enough time to react; but there are probably many other developers who created plugins and tool add-ons with the idea of some kind of monetization who just gave up when it didn't materialize, regardless of the time investment.

    That monetization can be harder to achieve in a GPL market, and as raymondtrace pointed out, at the end you aren't even left with your IP.

  13. #88
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
    ...one of the advantages of open source projects is that anyone interested in continuing development of a defunct plugin is allowed to do so...
    Indeed. GPL is "free" until you have to take on the burden yourself to continue development.

    Here's where we can pay for continued development of free MB-Lab software. https://www.patreon.com/mblab_development

    There's 6 patrons now. Now is your opportunity.

    I sincerely hope nobody here is still sitting on a LW11 license and complaining about LW's progress as well.
    LW7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  14. #89

    I sincerely hope nobody here is still sitting on a LW11 license and complaining about LW's progress as well.
    People usually pay for a good product when they see one, not before. Usually.
    But sure, it's not a rule.
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