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Thread: VPR understanding

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    What type of renders / work are you doing?

    Do you use the full potential of LightWave? Is there something you cannot do with it or you dislike?

    What don't you like in Octane?

    Did you try out Blender with Eevee, Cycles or maybe ProRender?

    Do you want to invest in something else and what is your budget for software? What licensing do you prefer? How important is availability of training or material libraries for you? Special requirements where only specific plugins exists for?

    For Eevee you don't need a render farm, as far as I know it only supports one GPU and that might not change because it's not a path tracer, more like a game engine.

    As mentioned, Eevee and Cycles can look different depending on your scene. But Eevee can nevertheless be used for lookdev as the principal materials are the same.

    Hope it help, cheers
    I don't have time right now to answer all questions but your questions are really good, so thank you.

    My work is not what you would call professional haha. I make kids animated videos for math. My job was accounting before I started learning lightwave about 6 to 7 years ago. My renders are not super professional looking at the moment and that is why this Eevee thing has been interesting. But I really like how my renders turn out on Lightwave and I love the workflow, not sure why but I do like it.

    Octane is hard for me for two reasons and neither are good ones I will admit. As animation is not my full time job learning nodes has been not so fun and converting all the stuff I have over seemed too daunting on top of learning it. Also whenever I do try it I seem to like the cpu regular lightwave renders better. The octane renders I see look good but I just feel like when I do get work (I hire out my complicated work) from freelancers in lightwave the octane renders are really good but just not what I thought they would be. Maybe there is no difference and it is just me. I don't fully know that.

    I am asking a lot about blender because I just don't know how things compare and my business grows I would like to get employees or freelancers to do the animation for me. With that being said knowing my options is a good thing as long as I understand what each option is and that is why I love the lightwave forums. The help is amazing here.

    As for investing in another software your answers on industry help me a lot. Currently my budget is only big enough for freelancers but our math game is starting up and the plan would be to get more help. One guy I currently have doing an internship type thing with us but he works in maya and it feels like every time we get a model from him it is more work for us to put surfaces on it properly for lightwave. I do have the budget for several licenses for maya but each time I give it a try, it seems soo complicated and I run back to Lightwave being so grateful for it lol. I will keep an eye on the industry because some day I want to help get a crew on an animated short to see how I like it.

    Currently my render farm is sufficient for most of my videos. My 360 videos definitely take a long time though but that is ok at the moment.

    Thanks

  2. #32
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    Another thing I forgot to mention is that VPR for my animations has been super helpful because they are not super intense and my desktop has two cpus. I wonder if Lightwave has considered real time rendering.

  3. #33
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    Hey Airwave thanks, your answers make totally sense. Also why you don't like Octane and prefer another engine for the look you're after.

    For realtime rendering in LightWave I think the answer is UnrealEngine. I don't think NewTek will develop something themselfs because they most likely don't t have the knowhow and resources to do so. Also it wouldn't make sense economically in my opinion. Unreal integration was the right move for them. However I see Unreal more useful for interactivity or games but since it's free why not try it out. Don't know what rules apply for commercial use.

    So for your work either LightWave and Blender seem a good choice to me.

    Cinema would be a good / my choice for easy MoGraph animation for kids but for fast renders you would also need Unreal or Redshift. But for easy, quick animation setup and efficient workflow the best choice in my opinion. Easiest package to learn. Also high quality learning and material resources are endless. Very big and helpful community too.

    Blender could be the best because you work with freelancers and Blender is free and there is much knowhow around with a huge community. Many artists don't even know again LightWave is still around and available resources are very limited and outdated. Workflow is very inefficient depending what you do. The advantage for you is that you already know LW and you have existing content.

    Try out these solutions if they make sense to you and give you the result you desire.

    Cheers!

  4. #34
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    just the other day, was trying to use the new free octane for free blender the free downloadversion..itīs kind of hidden in the forum links at otay, itīs not a demo but a full special edition version of blender that has the octane addon.
    But you need to run octane server and start the special edition of blender, I tried but when I went to preferences to set the cuda card, it failed to recognize my cuda gpur cards, which is strange since the original blender 2.8 recognize that.

    In my experience, itīs been hard to install both demos and this version of octane blender, and I am not getting anywhere with it so far, some of the first scenes I tried was a realtime boolean scene..which octane couldnīt interprete.

    Hope to get over this initial threshold and see if I can get it working to try it out better..but itīs frustrating.
    Same with other addons for blender, often they do not work due to perhaps not the right version, or I get a multiple name conflict of the addons, and despite deleting them and adding them freshly, I still get that error..so my experience with addons in blender is a bit frustrating compared to plugins for Lightwave, there has been a few in Lightwave too..such as UP, go...and deepFX..but in general most plugins if the right version is installed it works ok.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    In my experience, itīs been hard to install both demos and this version of octane blender, and I am not getting anywhere with it so far, some of the first scenes I tried was a realtime boolean scene..which octane couldnīt interprete.

    Hope to get over this initial threshold and see if I can get it working to try it out better..but itīs frustrating.
    Same with other addons for blender, often they do not work due to perhaps not the right version, or I get a multiple name conflict of the addons, and despite deleting them and adding them freshly, I still get that error..so my experience with addons in blender is a bit frustrating compared to plugins for Lightwave, there has been a few in Lightwave too..such as UP, go...and deepFX..but in general most plugins if the right version is installed it works ok.
    Prometheus, if you're running the Octane preview, the Booleans work fine, its just the cutter shapes aren't going to be hidden, you just have to disable the cutter from view in the outliner (that may be an option somewhere, I just havent' looked into it yet.) But Octane is so fast even on my single 1080Ti I actually have no problems modeling with the IPR running.



    And if you've only been testing 2.8 including the beta, plugins would break often because it was in beta and things would change so plugins have to be updated. Now that the final version of 2.8 is out, any add ons that were updated for 2.8 should work fine. I have boxcutter, hardOps, flip fluids, Fluent, gaffer, decal machine, and font selector and all of them work without issues(save for a bug with rendering flip, but that's on the blender side, not the add on).
    Last edited by hrgiger; 08-11-2019 at 10:09 AM.

  6. #36
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Prometheus, if you're running the Octane preview, the Booleans work fine, its just the cutter shapes aren't going to be hidden, you just have to disable the cutter from view in the outliner (that may be an option somewhere, I just havent' looked into it yet.) But Octane is so fast even on my single 1080Ti I actually have no problems modeling with the IPR running.



    And if you've only been testing 2.8 including the beta, plugins would break often because it was in beta and things would change so plugins have to be updated. Now that the final version of 2.8 is out, any add ons that were updated for 2.8 should work fine. I have boxcutter, hardOps, flip fluids, Fluent, gaffer, decal machine, and font selector and all of them work without issues(save for a bug with rendering flip, but that's on the blender side, not the add on).
    Canīt check that right now, I deleted the octane demo, then the other day tried to install the free blender octane version..but itīs not working for me since it doesnīt recognize the GPU at all, even though standard blender 2,8 does.
    So I am not getting anyware and itīs a bit frustrating trying to get going with octane, both demo and now this free version..I tried to post on the forums..but got no post through, I left a message on Lino Grandiīs channel a couple of hours ago..and I am awaiting somekind of response hopefully.

    Yes..you can disable cutters from the view in the outliner, that I know..but as I mentioned canīt try that now..and I do not want to re-install the demo..but to continue with the free version if possible.

    When I went to look for the free blender octane version...I found it very hard to find it, and installation information and how to get going is horrible..they need to do something about that on otoy main pages.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Canīt check that right now, I deleted the octane demo, then the other day tried to install the free blender octane version..but itīs not working for me since it doesnīt recognize the GPU at all, even though standard blender 2,8 does.
    So I am not getting anyware and itīs a bit frustrating trying to get going with octane, both demo and now this free version..I tried to post on the forums..but got no post through, I left a message on Lino Grandiīs channel a couple of hours ago..and I am awaiting somekind of response hopefully.

    Yes..you can disable cutters from the view in the outliner, that I know..but as I mentioned canīt try that now..and I do not want to re-install the demo..but to continue with the free version if possible.

    When I went to look for the free blender octane version...I found it very hard to find it, and installation information and how to get going is horrible..they need to do something about that on otoy main pages.
    Octane will recognize your cards in the Blender version, you just have to look under the Octane Server in the Render Tab in Blender and look at the device preference.

    As far as getting it going, I just downloaded the free tier, unzipped, ran the client server and the blender exe using run as administrator and seems to work ok.

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  8. #38
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Octane will recognize your cards in the Blender version, you just have to look under the Octane Server in the Render Tab in Blender and look at the device preference.

    As far as getting it going, I just downloaded the free tier, unzipped, ran the client server and the blender exe using run as administrator and seems to work ok.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Well no...It doesnīt, I can not choose anything than blender cycles or eeve and workbench in the render tab, and that I think is espected until you select your cuda settings in the preferences, but that will not recognize anything either.

    Tried to run as administrator, but no octane to choose from in the render tab, and in preferences system tab under the cuda tab....no compatible gpu.
    may need a reboot of the computer, and thereīs also new nvidia game drivers waiting, still odd though since the standard blender 2.8 version has no problem with it.

    maybe some licensing is needed, I canīt do anything with the octane server, should I be required to be logged in on otoy or something?

  9. #39
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Uhmm..I noticed ..in addons, octane render wasnīt checked..thought it should be active by default..now I can select octane render in the render tab, but I am not there yet..why it doesnīt recognize it under the preferences I donīt know.


    Seem to have it working..but I need to quick learn octane a bit, lighting isnīt working as expected with standard cycles..basics, canīt get a simple light to work..itīs just ambient occlusion it seems..or global illumination of no direct sunlight.

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  10. #40
    Yes, you need to enable the Octane Add on under preferences. I have an Octane account and am signed into it. I believe you do need it to run the free Octane tier for Blender as it does show up under my licenses on the Otoy website.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Yes, you need to enable the Octane Add on under preferences. I have an Octane account and am signed into it. I believe you do need it to run the free Octane tier for Blender as it does show up under my licenses on the Otoy website.
    Yes, thatīs what I said I did..and it worked.
    But no...I am not logged in..but can still run it.
    Havenīt figured out how to use the standard lamp though, set to sunlight it doesnīt affect the scene.

    I did check the world setting and used daylight environment..and that is what I wanted for standard blender..looks nice, though I need to figure out how to connect it to a manual sunlight for sundirection..if octane has itīs own way or if it needs the sun position addon as the standard blender version does?

    and yes..it is fast to render...would need this to work with volumetrics properly so I have a lot of research to do, as well as working with the latest Lightwave..which now has solved the issues with VDB gas solver and particle velocity..my older scenes are working now, and also..do not get any crashes ..not a single one for hours.
    But the fact remains, cpu rendering of volumes and fiberfx..sloooow.

  12. #42
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    Octane in Blender works ok but I'm not getting warm with it. I agree to Prometheus, the Otoy package in a separate Blender fork is not ideal. Octanes fireflies and noise in lower sample levels, shading, render settings, integration and overall experience is not my thing.

    The biggest issue with Blender is its object handling, the disconnection between object manager, viewport items and attributes, not intuitive to use for me. Camera handling in Blender is also not my favorite but that's maybe because I haven't figured out a couple of tricks. Then there is the different XYZ coordinate system that I always have to remember in which app I am, while all others I use all have the same system.

    Eevee is very nice and the new viewport is a dream. Eevee / Cycles surfacing and shading features are great. Blender 2.80 is a big step forward and a very powerful package.

    However I much prefer LightWave's or Cinema's way how Scene Editor, viewport objects and surfaces are connected.

    I'm feeling very comfortable at home with Cinema, Cycles 4D and Redshift, so much easier to handle with instant good results.

    And now that I got used to LW2019s render settings it's also more fun to use, even if it's slow to render in comparison.

    When the object handling issues are solved I might use Blender with Eevee / Cycles / Redshift (when it's out) more often for scene setup and render in future.

    What I will also look into is Blender modeling with HardOps and BoxCutter.

    Note, only my personal impressions and I'm a Blender beginner.

  13. #43
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Octane in Blender works ok but I'm not getting warm with it. I agree to Prometheus, the Otoy package in a separate Blender fork is not ideal. Octanes fireflies and noise in lower sample levels, shading, render settings, integration and overall experience is not my thing.

    The biggest issue with Blender is its object handling, the disconnection between object manager, viewport items and attributes, not intuitive to use for me. Camera handling in Blender is also not my favorite but that's maybe because I haven't figured out a couple of tricks. Then there is the different XYZ coordinate system that I always have to remember in which app I am, while all others I use all have the same system.

    Eevee is very nice and the new viewport is a dream. Eevee / Cycles surfacing and shading features are great. Blender 2.80 is a big step forward and a very powerful package.

    However I much prefer LightWave's or Cinema's way how Scene Editor, viewport objects and surfaces are connected.

    I'm feeling very comfortable at home with Cinema, Cycles 4D and Redshift, so much easier to handle with instant good results.

    And now that I got used to LW2019s render settings it's also more fun to use, even if it's slow to render in comparison.

    When the object handling issues are solved I might use Blender with Eevee / Cycles / Redshift (when it's out) more often for scene setup and render in future.


    What I will also look into is Blender modeling with HardOps and BoxCutter.

    Note, only my personal impressions and I'm a Blender beginner.

    Just had it installed for an hour or so...and I am already getting warm with it...just a few things I havenīt wrapped up which should be basics.
    But checking the materials ..those are nice, no anisotropy rotation is happening..guess it needs projection properly set up..just like Lightwaveīs anosotropy..but standard cycles PBR is already setup by default.
    as for fireflies...do not see that really. but more time is needed to evaluate

    for camera....a tip, what I usually do, use the perspective view to navigate ot a good point of view, and approach it a bit like in lightwave with match perspective to the camera, you can do this by(after having a good perspective view) going in to the view menu, then go down to align view, then align active camera to view...once that is down..I use the scroll mouse to adjust the interactive viewports size to be large enough, then select camera and in numeric panel "n" you have vertical tabs...and in the view tab in there..you have something called view lock..and lock camera to view..so check that..and the mouse scrolling will now only zoom in on the scene and object..and not change the viewport interactive size..and orbiting will work as with middle mouse move in the viewport...and also most importent, final render will be from that viewpoint as well.

    Agreed with you ..I prefer Lightwaveīs scene editor over the blender outliner ..and some other things in viewport handling, camera and light navigation..which I actually think is one of the better things with Lightwave compared to many other software..Still think it is the best "stage" for setting up a scene..within any 3D software.
    Still have to adjust to the newer 2.8 interface VS the older 2.79 interface...itīs much better now, but some things they actually made less attractive as far as the completely monochrome list of all editing tools mostly, and the selection icons of edge, vertices, edges ..was not the best in 2.79...but now in 2.8 itīs gotten even worse with just chromatic icons, itīs horrible really..just adapt modoīs icons or similar and itīs ok to go.

    Rendertimes with the "only CPU" forces me to start working with other tools though, ..but boy wouldnīt it be nice if octane free for lightwave was in place as well

    Hardops and box cutter looks awesome, I would need to research cost and what differs and similarities it has with lw cad, to decide if I want to invest more in blender than in Lightwave, it depends highly also on the rest of the Lightwave development.

  14. #44
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    Thanka Prometheus for the camera tips I'll try out. For me, Octane is not the engine of my choice - not the looks but handling. I have some many engines already I like, so I don't want to learn yet another shading and rendering system.

  15. #45
    Blender's Outliner still has a host of improvements coming, 2.8 was just the first step in implementing the new collections system. And using Collection instances are really easy and powerful. But the outliner already has a nice setup for filtering, searching, selection, and visibility options. And of course the outliner like every other editor in Blender can be placed in any window.

    Boxcutter, Hardops, Fluent are really awesome but they're not doing anything that isn't in Native Blender as its all based on non-destructive modifiers(although boxcutter has a destructive mode if you want to go that route), it's just easing the workflow considerably. Cost wise its like 45 bucks for both bc and hOps. Frankly, its the best Boolean system I've ever used but again its all down to Blender's really powerful modifier system which gives you a lot of control over bevels, Booleans, deformations, subdivision, decimation (preserving UVs)…. LWCAD is awesome for Modeler, its just modeler that is severely limited. With the exception of some of the specialized tools like stairs or fences, there isn't much you won't be able to replicate in Blender, there are even a few specific add ons that ship wtih Blender to do walls,foors, windows doors, etc....

    As far as the modeling tools, to be honest, up until 2.8, Blender was heavily hotkey dependent so I think it will take some time to flush out the new improved UI of 2.8 to offer something that appeals to both the traditional hotkey approach and more UI focused workflow. That said, learning the hotkeys for some of your common tools is the best approach.

    And yes, there are a few things I do right away to make Blender more like something I want to work in. First I delete that stupid box, I set up my viewport preferences to use a matcap and random colors for different objects, put my default camera and light into its own collection for organization and add a mesh folder which is selected so that any new mesh I add is put into it, I lock the camera to view (as Prometheus suggested above), I set Zoom to Mouse position and orbit around selection in preferences. Then I save the startup file and so that and several other things are the default when I start Blender.

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