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Thread: 16 x 4K 60p NDI inputs in TC1

  1. #1
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    Question 16 x 4K 60p NDI inputs in TC1

    Hello.
    I'd like to ask if TC1 can really support 16 NDI inputs in 4K 60p? It has only two 1Gb Ethernet ports and from what has been written on this forum a 1080p60 stream can use up to 150Mb/s. 150 x 16 is 2400 so this would mean that even 16 x 1080p60 is on or beyond the edge of bandwidth. I suspect 4K would require at least twice that. Has anyone tested it in such circumstances?
    Are there any other limitations other than that there is only one 4K mix output available? Can I, for example, overlay all the 4K inputs over each other using re-entrant M/Es?
    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    The important thing to realize about NDI sources is that they really don't take up much, if any, bandwidth until some NDI device starts pulling that feed. Meaning you might have 4 NDI sources available to TriCaster, but if you are doing cuts between those sources and only ONE source is ever on Program at a time, then just that ONE NDI source is using its full bandwidth. It is not "full NDI bandwidth x 4" as one might assume.

    My understanding is that the other NDI sources that are not on Program, but are perhaps represented in thumbnail form in the multiviewer for instance, will use very little bandwidth, the NDI source being scaled down and delivered in a lower quality to just meet the needs of the thumbnail display. The moment you switch that source to LIVE then it jumps to full size, full quality, full bandwidth.

    Of course if you are doing a PIP with two NDI sources, then you are using the combined bandwidth of both sources at once. But any unused NDI sources are more or less "idling" and just putting out a ping over the network that says "Hey, I'm here if you want to use me...just waiting here....".

    I hope that makes sense. Having 16 NDI sources "available" on the network does not mean you always have "bandwidth x 16" saturating the network. Now, if you used the M/Es to create some sort of mosaic screen to show a bunch of those sources at once on Program in a multiple PIP configuration, that would start sucking bandwidth. Which I believe relates to your last question about re-entrant M/Es and that is not something I've tried, but I believe that could saturate the network with enough sources selected.

    Thanks

    Jeff
    Jeff Pulera
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  3. #3
    Jeff has this correct. When sources are on output, bandwidth will be full quality, anything that is just being previewed is in proxy mode. When it comes to full quality 4Kp60, you can safely get two channels per 1GbE connection. If both NICs on the TC1 where connected to the switch, you can do 4 channels of 4Kp60 on output at once. If you need more than that, you should look to the VMC system which has 10GbE ports.
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

  4. #4
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    Thank you both. Is there a list of all limitations I'm going to meet in 4K? Tech specs say there will be only one video mix output over IP, but what about Streaming, Recording, SDI output? Will I, for example, be able to output down-scaled program feeds from multiple M/Es over 3G-SDI instead of one quad-link 4K? Will I be able to encode two 4K 60p streams with different bitrates? Will I still have 12 configurable video recording channels?
    Finally will I be able to overcome this 2 Gigabits limitation and expand my "4K inputs on output capacity" by attaching something like a QNA-UC5G1T USB 3.0 to 5GbE adapter?

  5. #5
    The resource use that UHD (4K) places on a TC1 system is on the outputs. Input, Media Players and M/E wise, everything is the same as in HD mode.

    If you are working in 4K mode, there is one MIX output. All four SDI outputs are Quad-Linked to give you a 4K output. There is no other output (SDI or NDI) to give you a down convert on the unit. You could use a NC1IO to create a down convert, if you have one, but it would be of the same MIX output.

    Recording wise, there are four LOCAL QuickTime recording channels, if you are talking 4K, there is one 4K output (the MIX output), so there is one 4K channel available to record. You can record the 3G-SDI inputs on the unit (if you are using them). The other 8 channels of recording are EXTERNAL which is NDI|HX, which would be HD maximum with any current HX source.

    You do have 2 streaming outputs in 4K mode, the will be of the same MIX output, but you could do something like low res/high res if you wanted.

    Adding a 5GbE adapter could help you get more full resolution 4K inputs into the system, but it will change anything on the outputs.

    Going with the VMC system can gain you more. It has 10GbE standard, which allow for a lot more bandwidth in and out of the unit. On the VMC you can do get DDR and Buffer output via NDI (at 4K), which does give you additional capability to get more 4K signals out of the box. If you need to get a Program output along with a M/E output both at 4K, then you are looking at a multi-engine workflow. We do have clients running this configuration.

    Lastly, in case this is the workflow you are looking for. Current 410 Plus, TC1 or VMC systems can do 4K Pan and Scan on the inputs. This allows you to work in 1080p (or other resolutions) allowing for all of the output capabilities found in these modes, while allowing you bring 4K sources and do a ROI extraction on the input. One of the nice aspects of this this workflow is that if you have the same 4K source connected for multiple ROI extractions, it only uses the bandwidth of one source.

    Some of this will change when Rev 7-1 software is released (mainly around recording).
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

  6. #6
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    Keep in mind that if you're using M/E's with more than one NDI source inside of it, that that could create an issue.
    We were doing a gaming tournament. We were stream to two different channels on Twitch. We were streaming the program out to one channel and preview out to another channel. Program was from M/E1 that had NDI sources from four computers in a quad formation, overlayed with four NDI webcams of the players with a similar setup in Preview from M/E2. With both in both Program and Preview, there was a lot of lag. We had to do some quick on the fly thinking to get things to work. Just because you can set something up, doesn't necessarily mean it will work.
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