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Thread: Cinema 4D R21 now requires login. Now only Lightwave is left to truly own, I think..

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    On a purely financial basis, why would you pay for LW or Modo, or for that matter C4D if you can have Blender for free.
    On a pure financial basis yes but there are many things impossible to do in Blender but easy in other apps and plugins and it has other disadvantages (like file exchange, fbx is very poor in Blender).

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    Nobody loves subscription. As in... >>> Nobody.
    That is absolutely untrue.
    According to both Allegorithmic and Foundry, the majority of new licenses sold now are subscription, even though in both cases a perpetual license is an option.
    I'd amend your statement to say that most hobbyists don't love subscription.
    Most people love having the latest and greatest technology and they like that technology to be accessible. Whether that be in perpetual or subscription option, whichever makes the most sense in either case. They just want to know how soon can I get it, when can I get my next update or fixes, and where do I send the check. And its simply another cost of doing business.
    Personally, I would have never bought a perpetual license of any of the Adobe products. But with the accessibility of CC, I've been using in off and on for work for several year and love the flexibility of it and have probably just recently paid what I would have for the original creative suite in perpetual form in total subs cost. Yet always used the latest versions. I've been on Substance now for ever 3 years and have no interest in a perpetual license.
    I get why some people choose perpetual and if its an option and its cost effective, I'll do it. But to say no one prefers subs is just flat out wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    On a pure financial basis yes but there are many things impossible to do in Blender but easy in other apps and plugins and it has other disadvantages (like file exchange, fbx is very poor in Blender).
    I've yet to have something I couldn't get in or out of Blender and USD is coming shortly. I'd also ask for what type of examples you mean when you say something is hard to do in Blender but easier in other apps.
    Last edited by hrgiger; 08-03-2019 at 07:25 AM.

  3. #63

    That is absolutely untrue.
    According to both Allegorithmic and Foundry, the majority of new licenses sold now are subscription, even though in both cases a perpetual license is an option.
    I'd amend your statement to say that most hobbyists don't love subscription.
    Absolutely not.

    That most use subscription doesn't mean they love it. They do it because they can jump off quickly (hobbyist) or because they plan on using it long term (big companies).
    Or, the rather uncomfortable part, the ones that just don't understand what its all about. There is also the forth part, the ones who do it but dislike it.

    So, I dare you, ask the question on one of those forums. "So who here Loves subscription?"
    and get ready for a lively thread.
    Last edited by erikals; 08-03-2019 at 09:42 AM.
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  4. #64

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLexx View Post
    Now that's interesting. Could one of the big names actually vanish ? FWIW, I think Modo looks (sadly) a bit vulnerable, though to be fair LW has new owners too so I hope they hold their nerve...
    AutoDesk won't fly out the window any time soon. But Maya and Max could certainly get into trouble.

    LightWave is up and running because of Tim Jenison. Unfortunately CORE happened, and NT lost quite a bit of cash. LightWave still have wounds from that incident.
    Hopefully the VizRT deal said something about supporting LightWave3D for at least 5 more years, but wouldn't bet on it. Certainly not.  
    Tim Jenison did put a lot of cash into LightWave.

    I'm happy for Blender though. They (Ton Roosendaal) force the Big Guys to change standards.
    Last edited by erikals; 08-03-2019 at 09:58 AM.
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  5. #65

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    A lot of students are now using Blender and i think this really is what scares AD,
    they thrived in part because of the student licenses and university/college use.
    If that goes then it will have a trickle-down effect.
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  6. #66
    LOL, Autodesk is scared.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    I've yet to have something I couldn't get in or out of Blender and USD is coming shortly. I'd also ask for what type of examples you mean when you say something is hard to do in Blender but easier in other apps.
    First off I have to say that Blender is an amazing application (specially 2.80). There is very much you can do in it and there are some nice addons (I have FLIP Fluids and HardOps/BoxCutter).

    In addition there are some unique features in Blender like Grease Pencil and Eevee is great.

    However in general, many Blender features don't go as deep as other applications (except maybe LightWave), mostly there are fewer parameters to control and while less easy to use (for example very basic / limited tools like Knife, Color Picker, Dynamics, Cloth, Primitives, you name it). I didn't look at Sculpting, Animation, Motion Tracking or Rigging, but I would not be surprised if it's similar. Other features are not present or in separate forks.

    Note - I might be wrong with some of these statements because I don't do much in Blender.

    Some examples:

    - FBX import issues (for example posed / animated DAZ characters) - FBX was reverse engineered by the Blender devs because it's proprietary AD code - bones are not setup properly
    - FBX import limitations - many features are not supported
    - Alembic import issues, doesn't work in many cases because not all Alembic formats are supported, for example HDFS
    - Alembic limitations - retiming, streaming, creases and corners, curves, face sets, etc. missing, no parametric Alembic object
    - missing CAD import (IGES, STEP and others)
    - no Substance / SBAR support
    - no Fracture (in separate fork and not as deep as other packages)
    - no OpenVDB modeling, no OpenVDB manipulation, no OpenVDB import
    - Text (Kerning - is there but hidden, limited Bevels, Caps, Character/Word/Letter recognition)
    - Spline toolset not user friendly compared to others
    - very limited Noises
    - very limited Cloners / Arrays
    - limited Falloff capability
    - limited Simulation capabilities compared to others, not suitable for complex particle animations
    - no parametric LOD workflow
    - even with the Blender Animation Nodes the MoGraph capability is very limited compared to other solutions and overly complicated for simple things
    - no Take / Variation system as far as I know
    - Blender plugins / addons mostly not on par with larger commercial plugins for Foliage, Crowd / Traffic / Particle / Fluid simulation etc.

    I added some screenshots of Car Rig / Traffic simulation / Plants addons in Cinema to get an idea of the level of detail (no Dynamics / Particle examples because it would just be too much).

    Of course there are Car Rig or Tree addons for Blender but they are all very basic in comparison and less user friendly.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Again, for a free software, Blender is incredible. But compared to some of the big packages, there are limitations.
    Last edited by Marander; 08-03-2019 at 07:13 PM.

  8. #68
    Yes sure of course there are limitations. And a few things in your list I would like to see added to Blender (parametric LODs, better falloffs and CAD import)
    However I do think you're going to see some of those things addressed even in the next year, especially once everything nodes are in Blender and the particle system is being replaced, USD, mantra flow.... And animation is going to be a big focus over the next year. And from what I Recall, they're going to 3-4 month releases now that 2.8 is out.
    Of course this is why we use multiple applications. C4D has a lot of great features. Had it been more accessible now I probably would have picked it up. But now I"m pretty content with the tools I have for now. Maybe at some point though...

  9. #69
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    On a pure financial basis yes but there are many things impossible to do in Blender but easy in other apps and plugins and it has other disadvantages (like file exchange, fbx is very poor in Blender).
    Do you mean .fbx export in 2.8, seems ok to me. I regularly export from LW to Blender 2.8 in FBX and everything comes through fine, textures, UV's and the nodes are correct. OK precedural stuff has to be baked but apart from that it seems fine.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    That is absolutely untrue.
    According to both Allegorithmic and Foundry, the majority of new licenses sold now are subscription, even though in both cases a perpetual license is an option.
    I'd amend your statement to say that most hobbyists don't love subscription.
    Most people love having the latest and greatest technology and they like that technology to be accessible. Whether that be in perpetual or subscription option, whichever makes the most sense in either case. They just want to know how soon can I get it, when can I get my next update or fixes, and where do I send the check. And its simply another cost of doing business.
    Personally, I would have never bought a perpetual license of any of the Adobe products. But with the accessibility of CC, I've been using in off and on for work for several year and love the flexibility of it and have probably just recently paid what I would have for the original creative suite in perpetual form in total subs cost. Yet always used the latest versions. I've been on Substance now for ever 3 years and have no interest in a perpetual license.
    I get why some people choose perpetual and if its an option and its cost effective, I'll do it. But to say no one prefers subs is just flat out wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I've yet to have something I couldn't get in or out of Blender and USD is coming shortly. I'd also ask for what type of examples you mean when you say something is hard to do in Blender but easier in other apps.
    Agreed i have no problem with subscription at all. Its depends on the cost of the subscription. I like Algorithmics system, after 12 months subscription you own the software, wish others did the same even if it was higher.

    I find some 3d app subscription to be to high. Adobe CC is $50 per month, for what you get i think that's pretty good value for money. Autodesk subscription prices are ridiculous IMHO, i think ZBrush and Modo are closer to the mark.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    Do you mean .fbx export in 2.8, seems ok to me. I regularly export from LW to Blender 2.8 in FBX and everything comes through fine, textures, UV's and the nodes are correct. OK precedural stuff has to be baked but apart from that it seems fine.
    I serms Blender 2.8 got better in that regard and I actually only noticed issues importing rigged DAZ characters.

  12. #72
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post


    AutoDesk won't fly out the window any time soon. But Maya and Max could certainly get into trouble.

    LightWave is up and running because of Tim Jenison. Unfortunately CORE happened, and NT lost quite a bit of cash. LightWave still have wounds from that incident.
    Hopefully the VizRT deal said something about supporting LightWave3D for at least 5 more years, but wouldn't bet on it. Certainly not.  
    Tim Jenison did put a lot of cash into LightWave.

    I'm happy for Blender though. They (Ton Roosendaal) force the Big Guys to change standards.
    And this is my biggest hope for Blender, not only a good open source 3d app but hopefully a change in pricing models from some of them.

    Autodesk wont change much apart from tinkering around the edges until they are forced to. The only way that will happen is if universities/colleges start using Blender more and more, this will have a trickle down effect and then studios will change, yes slowly but it will happen.

    Sadly you cant get away from the reality that many people think free or very cheap means substandard and feature poor.
    Last edited by JohnMarchant; 08-04-2019 at 03:13 AM.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    Agreed i have no problem with subscription at all. Its depends on the cost of the subscription. I like Algorithmics system, after 12 months subscription you own the software, wish others did the same even if it was higher.
    I think it's only matter of time the rent to own option will disappear along with perpetual licenses now that Substance is Adobe.

    My Substance Designer maintenance just ran out so I don't know if I should still renew it.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    I serms Blender 2.8 got better in that regard and I actually only noticed issues importing rigged DAZ characters.
    I cant speak specifically for Daz products as ive not used them. Problem with .FBX format is that it also depends on the version of .FBX being used and supported. I have had problems in the past with .FBX to Blender, but this was usually files that i got in .FBX originally.

    Blender has a long way to go but its heading in the right direction, not just the app, but the communication, marketing and such. You can actually talk to devs and they will respond, none of this secrecy crap.

    Many of the things that you mentioned above that Blender does not have are actually covered by 3rd party addons. OpenVDB, .SBSAR format has an addon to do do this, indeed to link Substance to many other apps. Goz also has an addon. Flip fluids in Blender seems to be at least as good as DeepFx in LW and is a lot cheaper.

    Most addons are python which of course in some circumstances can be a problem in terms of speed and CPU usage.

    However we are talking about free software, so if you got most of the addons you need its still less than you would pay for a years subscription of any other 3d app.

    Rendering, well cycles is good, EEVEE is great and ECylces is also good if you have less cards.
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  15. #75
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    I think it's only matter of time the rent to own option will disappear along with perpetual licenses now that Substance is Adobe.

    My Substance Designer maintenance just ran out so I don't know if I should still renew it.
    Oh, i agree no matter what Algorithmic or Adobe says its days are numbered. Luckily I've got to my 12 months so i own it now and i will wait and see.

    There will be something in the agreement which means if revenue falls below a certain amount or the stock value goes below a certain amount then Adobe can step in and demand price changes.

    Of course no one will say it but all contracts contain these sorts of clauses deep in the pages. If it goes wholly Adobe then i will see as i have CC, but at least if it does i will have a license that does not need to go online or anything like that and will always work.
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