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Thread: TC1 and NC1 source loss issue

  1. #1
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    TC1 and NC1 source loss issue

    Hi guys,

    New to the forum, so please go easy on me!!

    I have a TC1 and NC1, after upgrading from an 855, and have noticed a horrible "feature". If you have any source connected to the NC1 suddenly lose connection it displays a freeze frame on the TC1.

    These is particularly annoying as it is only really noticeable to us when it is too late, as the majority of the start of our production is a completely static shot.

    It would be better if it just went black or something to indicate that source has been lost.

    Any ideas? Is this a feature that can be disabled?

    Thanks in advance

  2. #2
    With NDI, if there is a drop in the signal, it will continue to display the last frame of video. This is in case your network doesn't deliver a frame in time, a static frame is much less of an issue than a pop of a black frame in the signal.

    I understand in your case, you are losing the connection, so it isn't just one frame but a disconnect. I guess the real question is, why is that happening?
    Last edited by kanep; 07-26-2019 at 02:31 PM.
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

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    Hi all,

    I have to say, this issue has caught me out also. I agree that a frame still is better than black, but the main issue is that there is absolutely no indication that you've lost a source. Non-whatsoever . Unfortunately this has then laid a trap for you to fall into when you're live. I believe the GUI should clearly indicate that you have lost a source while keeping the frame still.

    I'm not sure a "why is that happening" (why did your source fail) argument is really valid here as you can lose inputs for hundreds of legitimate reasons in broadcast (some not so legitimate) and you need you’re equipment to indicate that this has in-fact happened.

    I for one, would certainly like this altered so the GUI indicates or warns you that you have lost an input.

  4. #4
    I'm not disagree about loosing a source, but I wasn't clear in what I was wanting to know. Is this loosing a source because of something like a cable disconnection or the camera battery died (the reason was determined). Or was this something where the source dropped and no reason could be determined.

    As for a GUI indication about a source being live or not. I'd recommend putting in a bug report.
    https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...Reporting-Bugs
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

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    Thanks for replying guys. I think there is no relevance in knowing "why" the source has lost its connection, that would be a totally separate issue. The fact is that the loss of an NDI source is very much a trap, as Hamma rightly said.

    I will definitely be reporting this as a bug - even if it had a opaque checkerboard overlay, just something to show that there is nothing there. When you connect an NDI source and don't have the relevant drivers it displays a graphic to say that it can't display the video (yet it is still connected). Why can't the same programming be applied to this issue?

  6. #6
    Registered User rsilva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanep View Post
    With NDI, if there is a drop in the signal, it will continue to display the last frame of video. This is in case your network doesn't deliver a frame in time, a static frame is much less of an issue than a pop of a black frame in the signal.

    I understand in your case, you are losing the connection, so it isn't just one frame but a disconnect. I guess the real question is, why is that happening?
    I join this topic because it is also a huge problem for me (every day)

    Sorry but I've to totally desagree with you. The cause of lost NDI connection have no relevance here. We've 5 Tricasters TC1 working every day in auditoriums, 90% of the time projecting Power Points slides that are no more then "freeze frames". So, if a laptop runs out of battery, or someone disconnect the rj45 cable we can't see any difference until someone ask for help. Plus, this is the main cause that we're now using Decimators instead NDI Scan Converter. The lost NDI connection have to be rethinked! In my opinion it's very simple - goes BLACK - the some behavior of SDI or HDMI, no doubt that it will turn the NDI in a most realiable technology.

  7. #7
    I do not disagree that a method of indication for a disconnected source would be a good thing.

    My original question stems from wanting to know if the freeze was a situation was where NDI stopped working when it shouldn't have or if there was something like you mentioned (battery died, cable disconnect). This wasn't specified originally. There is a big difference between these, with the for former, it is a bug or something wrong with the network configuration. While with the latter, it changes how NDI operates and while we might want it different, it doesn't constitute an error in the sense that NDI operating differently than currently designed.

    Basically, I was trying to find out how to proceed. Are my next questions about network configuration? Entering a Fogbugz case about a possible NDI bug? Asking that an aspect of NDI's operation be changed? You might see that all as the same (when video stops, it should go black), I want to frame my ask in the correct situation.

    Since it this all appears to fall under the situation of something external (battery dies, cable disconnect). Let me as a few questions, so I can better put in a report on what people desire.

    Should it go to black immediately? You might feel the initial answer is yes, but I want you think about this. If someone disconnected the cable for a split second, then connected it back right away, would it be better if it went black after a certain amount of time has passed (perhaps a few seconds?). What should happen if you are on horrible WiFi connection (we don't recommend it, but doesn't mean that people don't do it), should the signal go in and out based on the connection quality?

    Or instead, should it be some other on screen indicator that the source has stopped? Perhaps a RED 'X' appears in on the UI of that input?

    I'll add one last thought. As I understand, NDI supports a fall back connection, in which each channel can be set with a secondary backup channel. It is part of the NDI spec, but admittedly this feature is not currently exposed in the TriCaster. Perhaps this need to be expanded so the user could select a backup source (then you set 'black' from NDI Test Patterns as a backup if so desired).

    Some people feel that if a black image goes on output, it is worst thing that can happen on a show and that freeze frame might not be as damaging. Not saying it is good, just not as bad.

    I'm not saying one way is right and the other wrong, perhaps there is something else beyond what I've mentioned. We are used to how SDI operates in this regard, but we don't have to be subject to the same rules. Perhaps there is a better way?

    Lastly, I'm not in development, there could technical reasons for why things are the way they are beyond my knowledge. I have no direct role in making this happen, but I can put forth recommendations. What is being asked for might be in the road-map already. Input can help prioritize features.
    Last edited by kanep; 08-11-2019 at 11:52 AM.
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

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    Kane is right that you want to be mindful of momentary minor disruptions and not just drop to black on a whim. The SDI inputs have a little bit of that in them now. I've had some spotty signals that the TriCaster would momentarily freeze and hold for me. Just long enough for me to get out of it before it gave up and went dark. The little freeze is by far preferable to dropping out to black. I see a couple of logical ways to handle that.

    One could be just driven by tally. If a source is on the air when the signal drops out, freeze and hold it until tally is released and the signal is off the air. At that point it is safe to drop out to black. I'd combine that with maybe an exclamation point or other notification overlay on the multiviewer if a signal has dropped from more than a few seconds. And probably something in the notification area too.

    The other could just be based on timeout. I'd say 10-15 seconds of freeze, followed by a dropout to black and the same need for some overlay on the multiviewer after a few seconds of signal loss, although that is less important here since you end up in black anyway, which is a good indication of a problem.

    Either would seem to both protect people from getting accidental black on the air and give them a chance to notice the problem.

    Kris
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  9. #9
    Registered User rsilva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    Kane is right that you want to be mindful of momentary minor disruptions and not just drop to black on a whim. The SDI inputs have a little bit of that in them now. I've had some spotty signals that the TriCaster would momentarily freeze and hold for me. Just long enough for me to get out of it before it gave up and went dark. The little freeze is by far preferable to dropping out to black. I see a couple of logical ways to handle that.

    One could be just driven by tally. If a source is on the air when the signal drops out, freeze and hold it until tally is released and the signal is off the air. At that point it is safe to drop out to black. I'd combine that with maybe an exclamation point or other notification overlay on the multiviewer if a signal has dropped from more than a few seconds. And probably something in the notification area too.

    The other could just be based on timeout. I'd say 10-15 seconds of freeze, followed by a dropout to black and the same need for some overlay on the multiviewer after a few seconds of signal loss, although that is less important here since you end up in black anyway, which is a good indication of a problem.

    Either would seem to both protect people from getting accidental black on the air and give them a chance to notice the problem.

    Kris
    Once again, I need to totally disagree with your vision. For any kind of lost source (SDI, HDMI or NDI) the default primary action should be BLACK SCREEN + red notification in top right corner AND/OR in specific lost signal window input over GUI. Of course Newtek can go forward and make available any kind of SOS last frame freeze system... something that you can turn on if you want.

    Since I'm using a smart ross router + barnfind for SDI connections and a double redundancy allied telesis 10g switcher for NDI, the main causes for connections lost is the "human factor" and I need/want to know it in the right moment the problem occurs.
    5 x Tricaster TC1
    1 x Panasonic AV-HLC100
    18 x Panasonic AW-UE70
    3 x Panasonic AW-UE150
    6 x BirdDog Studio NDI

  10. #10
    Registered User rsilva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanep View Post
    I do not disagree that a method of indication for a disconnected source would be a good thing.

    My original question stems from wanting to know if the freeze was a situation was where NDI stopped working when it shouldn't have or if there was something like you mentioned (battery died, cable disconnect). This wasn't specified originally. There is a big difference between these, with the for former, it is a bug or something wrong with the network configuration. While with the latter, it changes how NDI operates and while we might want it different, it doesn't constitute an error in the sense that NDI operating differently than currently designed.

    Basically, I was trying to find out how to proceed. Are my next questions about network configuration? Entering a Fogbugz case about a possible NDI bug? Asking that an aspect of NDI's operation be changed? You might see that all as the same (when video stops, it should go black), I want to frame my ask in the correct situation.

    Since it this all appears to fall under the situation of something external (battery dies, cable disconnect). Let me as a few questions, so I can better put in a report on what people desire.

    Should it go to black immediately? YES, better way to achieve the reliability is make NDI signals working like SDI You might feel the initial answer is yes, but I want you think about this. If someone disconnected the cable for a split second, then connected it back right away, would it be better if it went black after a certain amount of time has passed (perhaps a few seconds?) Yes, it'll be good have that option!. What should happen if you are on horrible WiFi connection (we don't recommend it, but doesn't mean that people don't do it), should the signal go in and out based on the connection quality? In that case it'll be nice if you have an SOS option last frame freeze that you can turn ON in specific INPUTS

    Or instead, should it be some other on screen indicator that the source has stopped? Perhaps a RED 'X' appears in on the UI of that input? Yes, it should appear in any case over GUI

    I'll add one last thought. As I understand, NDI supports a fall back connection (yes, i've test it so many times... with Panasonic PTZ cams or other Tricasters NDI outputs it works, but with laptop sources w/ NDI Scan Converter i'll say that works only 25% of tries!) , in which each channel can be set with a secondary backup channel. It is part of the NDI spec, but admittedly this feature is not currently exposed in the TriCaster. Perhaps this need to be expanded so the user could select a backup source (then you set 'black' from NDI Test Patterns as a backup if so desired). can you explain this with more details? Maybe create a new topic about this... I see here something very important in the future

    Some people feel that if a black image goes on output, it is worst thing that can happen on a show and that freeze frame might not be as damaging. Not saying it is good, just not as bad. Black is bad! All of us want to avoid this but we need to know when a problem occurs in the exact time that it happen. Maybe the X red advice over GUI is the best and quick way to start changing NDI beahviors.

    I'm not saying one way is right and the other wrong, perhaps there is something else beyond what I've mentioned. We are used to how SDI operates in this regard, but we don't have to be subject to the same rules. Perhaps there is a better way?

    Lastly, I'm not in development, there could technical reasons for why things are the way they are beyond my knowledge. I have no direct role in making this happen, but I can put forth recommendations. What is being asked for might be in the road-map already. Input can help prioritize features.
    Answer above and thanks in advance for this brainstorming!
    Last edited by rsilva; 08-15-2019 at 04:18 PM.
    5 x Tricaster TC1
    1 x Panasonic AV-HLC100
    18 x Panasonic AW-UE70
    3 x Panasonic AW-UE150
    6 x BirdDog Studio NDI

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