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Thread: LightWave Physical Sun / Sky settings and other render engines

  1. #46
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    So here's my last tests for today...

    Despike Tolerance 0.1, reduced Reflection Samples to 4 and Rays to 20 (both to bring down render times) with 1024 ISBG Samples (lower settings produce too many fireflies), no background sampling

    Still a few fireflies but much better than before.

    LW2019.1 - Render 5:05 min

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    Vray - Render 1:58 min

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    The Vray image is sharper because it uses Lanczos anti aliasing by default. Nevertheless it still has better contour anti aliasing. Don't know if the algorithm can be changed in LW (I guess it uses Gaussian). Also Vray has softer shadows and less contrast (by default) which is good for post processing. Note I had to reduce the image in order to upload (Vray saves 1080p 16bit PNGs 9 MB large which is more than all other engines which use about 1.7 - 2.0 MB).

    I might try again another time with different Sun / Sky settings in LW but in its current state I see not much use of it in LW when I can get better results with more control and less hassle in 15-30 sec (GPU) or 1-3 min (CPU). Moreover these tests use almost no shading, no normal maps, no displacement, no DOF, no refraction, volume scattering, clear coat, SSS etc. Enabling these options on GPU make almost no difference in render times.

    Rendering reflective rough surfaces seems broken to me unless I see a way to render without fireflies with all types of available lights in LW.
    Last edited by Marander; 07-21-2019 at 04:03 PM.

  2. #47
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    So here's my last tests for today...

    Despike Tolerance 0.1, reduced Reflection Samples to 4 and Rays to 20 with 1024 ISBG Samples (no background sampling)

    Still a few fireflies but much better than before.

    LW2019.1 - Render 5:05 min

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mar_SunSky_Test_LW04.png 
Views:	33 
Size:	1.53 MB 
ID:	145580

    Vray - Render 1:58 min

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Mar_SunSky_Test_Vray02a.png 
Views:	33 
Size:	2.38 MB 
ID:	145581

    The Vray image is sharper because I used Lanczos anti aliasing. Don't know if the algorithm can be changed in LW (I guess it uses Gaussian). Also Vray has softer shadows and less contrast (by default) which is good for post processing.

    I might try again another time with different Sun / Sky settings in LW but in the current state I see not much use of it in LW when I can get the better result with more control and less hassle in 15-30 sec (GPU) or 1-3 min (CPU). The rendering of reflective rough surfaces seems broken to me unless I see a way to render without fireflies with all types of available lights in LW.

    Iīm no master of killing fireflies, I need a little more time working with Lightwave in various settings, and also check up what other have described etc, Before I really can say that Lightwave really needs a fix for this when using the physical sky, thereīs always dpont sunsky, which is easier to use and especially to change colors as you want, it may not be as accurate when it comes to reflecting in surfaces or with the new sunlight, and perhaps not as distinct as the new physical sky.

    I think I need to setup a basic scene where the sun is facing straight ahead at 180 degree angle and going down to sunset, and use sunsky, then the same with the physical sky and then animate the elevation/pitch and see the differences..may put it up on youtube.

    Iīll bet if I were to set the location and time to that Photo image I posted, and render..it would go all dark and not accurately represent how it actually looks like on almost midsummer nights here in sweden at midnight.

    By the way...do you know of any good ocean cruiser model that is for free? been looking aroung but always something missing in textures, or resolution or the model itself...just want it for personal test render purposes so a commercial one is not an option.



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  3. #48

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Fireflies could also be used positively as stars


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    Haha good one

    Actually yes, there are tons of freebies at Pixellab:

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    You have to register for it but it's free. If you need me to convert a model let me know via PM.
    Last edited by Marander; 07-21-2019 at 04:16 PM.

  5. #50
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    Haha good one

    Actually yes, there are tons of freebies at Pixellab:

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    You have to register for it but it's free. If you need me to convert a model let me know via PM.
    Yup..bummer, I found a nice one direcly, but cinema4D format, I donīt think there was any info to what format it is except directly upon starting download of the zipfile.



    Can not pay for the conversions..but possibly sharing scene setups maybe.
    But I will have to look around a little more, but good to know whatīs there.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Yup..bummer, I found a nice one direcly, but cinema4D format, I donīt think there was any info to what format it is except directly upon starting download of the zipfile.



    Can not pay for the conversions..but possibly sharing scene setups maybe.
    But I will have to look around a little more, but good to know whatīs there.
    Just let me know what model via PM and I'll convert it for you (fbx / lwo). Since you're registered and able to download it from their site I see harm in it. Maybe we can share email via PM so I can send you the model (or a link to dropbox).

  7. #52
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    This is my attempt. 3 minutes with optix denoiser, and no fireflies.

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    LW_SunSky03.7z

    What I miss is a one click solution, to get the best physically correct rig.

    Regards
    English is not my native language so please be patient.

    Salvador Ureņa
    http://urenasalvador.wixsite.com/portfolio

  8. #53
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asticles View Post
    This is my attempt. 3 minutes with optix denoiser, and no fireflies.

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    LW_SunSky03.7z

    What I miss is a one click solution, to get the best physically correct rig.

    Regards
    How are you guys lighting these?

    I've just done a test here at work, and a torus in a sunsky scene renders in 20 seconds with no noise.

    There's no real need to turn GI on for a scene like this either, it barely looks any different.

    With GI turned on, and 32 samples it still renders in 40 seconds at 1280x720 and no noise.


    I do think it may be down to confusion of how each bit of the new renderer works. The environment light, mixed with the sun light and sun sky environment is very confusing.
    Last edited by lardbros; 07-22-2019 at 06:34 AM.
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  9. #54
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    How are you guys lighting these?

    I've just done a test here at work, and a torus in a sunsky scene renders in 20 seconds with no noise.
    That doesnīt say much, what surface does the torus have?

    And for the record..this test scene should perhaps have been called Physical sky, it may be confused with the DP sunsky, ( not you to blame.

    Itīs problematic in the sense that it seems to also depend on angle of the light hitting the surface, so in some cases you get a clean render..while in other sun directional changes..the fireflies pop up.

    unchecking glossy surfaces is unaccaptable as a solution if you need water surfaces etc.

    You also do not want over 9 hours of rendering..even while sleeping on it, and still a couple of small pesky fireflies, and cam AA too small to resolve the depth of field.
    Though this kind of high rendertimes may not be all that surprising since it uses 20 reflection samples, indirect samples for volumetrics, volumetric clouds with a fairly low step size, and also Global volumetric scattering ...and together with depth of field.

    I found the free ship of the Queen Mary 2 model on archive3D.net, (Obj.file( I had to change the size from 1km to the correct size, had to manally assign the textures, the One uv map was intact though.
    Surfacing on the ship was kept as standard materials, could try and convert to PBR for perhaps a more realistic look on the ship hull, with some risc of more fireflies.

    Image sample...



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  10. #55
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    I'm using a PBSDF with the default settings. Bit of spec and bit of roughness. I can share the scene later.

    Guess it heavily depends on the CPU you're using too. Mine is a dual CPU xeon 3ghz
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  11. #56
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post

    Guess it heavily depends on the CPU you're using too. Mine is a dual CPU xeon 3ghz
    For speed... Yes, .For fireflies.. No.

    Please post the scene and letīs see if I can do magic and introduce fireflies on your flawless scene

  12. #57
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    lol.

    Fireflies are generally caused by the over-bright sun-light and no MIS sampling, mixed with strong specular reflections, and reflections of other spec.
    My scene is just a torus on a plane by the way, I'd need to see your scene of the ship to see if there's anything weird going on.

    Do you have a scene like that, without any copyrighted models and things?

    I'm not saying I can fix it, and I'm not saying the LW system is perfect by any means... just saying that currently the day light stuff is confusing, and mixed with some odd and weird workflows concerning the 'raytrace' and 'raytrace backdrop' material settings which can make fireflies worse than they might be.
    Also, those settings can cause the render to be twice as slow as maybe they wouldn't if the slightly peculiar rules aren't adhered to.

    Cheers
    Last edited by lardbros; 07-22-2019 at 08:58 AM.
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  13. #58
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    lol.

    Fireflies are generally caused by the over-bright sun-light and no MIS sampling, mixed with strong specular reflections, and reflections of other spec.
    My scene is just a torus on a plane by the way, I'd need to see your scene of the ship to see if there's anything weird going on.

    Do you have a scene like that, without any copyrighted models and things?

    I'm not saying I can fix it, and I'm not saying the LW system is perfect by any means... just saying that currently the day light stuff is confusing, and mixed with some odd and weird workflows concerning the 'raytrace' and 'raytrace backdrop' material settings which can make fireflies worse than they might be.
    Also, those settings can cause the render to be twice as slow as maybe they wouldn't if the slightly peculiar rules aren't adhered to.

    Cheers
    Will look in to that, the scene was full of everything, that means both GI and environment light..which you maybe do not want and only either environment light or GI, the thing is that you exclude the full realism if you only use one of those alternatives, itīs a balance, especially if you need GI happening in clouds or bouncing reflecting from ground, environment lights doesnīt take care of that..on the other hand, if only using GI..you may need to increase intensity so much if you have a sun at low level, that it practicly doesnīt do much good in lighting up the objects, thus you would want also environment lights.

    You say MIS samples, that is only in the environment light, but I am sure those fireflies will show up without environment light and MIS sampling, and it will show up without GI as well, itīs something about the PBR reflectiv/Glossy surfacing together with the Physical sky ..and the reflective samples do not take care of it either, I am pretty sure I tested it without GI and without Environment Light..and tiny speckles of fireflies is there anyway, just a few of them.

    In my sample image you an see on speckle on the water surf, and maybe three four up high on the boat/tower, also had to increase indirect samples on volumetrics, otherwise it would have shown fireflies all over the clouds as well.

  14. #59
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    Just had too.

    7 Min 34 Secs, Despike 0.01. I turned off the ocean subdivision.

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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    lol.
    Cheers
    Lardbros thanks for chiming in. the thread is not about a specific image or scene, the requirement was

    Simple object on a 60km plane, Principled BSDF white material for both with 50% roughness, GI enabled, noise free, LW native Sun / Sky (daylight) , no denoiser used (except Despike for LW)

    The aim is to setup a starting scene with good sunlight and low render times. I was able to do this very easily with several engines but not LW. The biggest issue was to get rid of fireflies with acceptable render time. I therefore posted a simple scene to start with.

    The solution should not be to disable GI or use denoiser because it it should be a start for more complex animation scenes. Denoiser is not useful in all situations and is not required by other renderers in order to get a quick and noise free image.

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