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Thread: What is LightWave when you really think about it?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    RPSchmidt, if all you got out of everything I said boils down to me saying Modeler is simple just because it doesn't have a modifier stack, then I don't know what else to do to explain it. A modifier stack is only one part of it. And you may have used Max as your primary app at one point, but you sure weren't making the most of it if you only saw the modifier stack as a 'undo list'.
    I bought 3ds Max 2.5 in 1999, one of it's main selling points to me is the modifier stack.
    It's not just an undo list.
    To say that is to be fundamentally mistaken of how 3ds max was constructed to be used.

    Feel free to use lightwave, it is a destructive workflow - "drop the tool" way of working.
    If that works for you then great.
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  2. #62
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Comparing LW to other polygonal modelers (even those with more advanced modifier capability) is still a relatively lame comparison in the wider spectrum of what's available to a 3D designer. Those that find fault or limits with polygonal modelers should be looking at a full CAD application for greater design control. And yes, there are even free/GPL options if you want to wade into that realm without expense. All this "hard ops" and "modifier" buzzword lingo is just a bunch of CAD envy.

    A lot of my work in LW originates from CAD applications so I'm not too concerned about modifiers or variable parts missing from LW (even though it would still be a welcome addition).
    LW7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  3. #63
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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    Been using Max alongside Lightwave practically seamlessly since the release of OD Tools. For procedural geometry the Max modifier stack is amazing (definitely keep a copy of the non-collapsed file for future edits), but it always ends up in Lightwave Modeler for finesse and cleanup.

    Lightwave's polygons-like-pixels and Layer system and everything is selected when nothing is selected workflow is faster and more elegant than Max for most modeling projects IMO. Granted, this would not be the case without 3rd Powers, LW Cad and TrueArt. Lightwave would still be more intuitive but not nearly as fast without those 3rd Party tools. LW Group needs to keep that in mind and consider why those tools are so much faster. I think this video makes it obvious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMhSFBCuQok

    There have been nice updates to LW Brush since then but it could be so much better.

    The LW Team is aware they have work to do in Modeler. We all know it has fallen behind. Yet, the foundations of the workflow are fine imo. The foundations of the code, in terms of viewport performance and supporting procedural non-destructive modeling, are much less clear in terms of viability. But the LW Team explicitly mentioned non-destructive modeling in their "Modeler Development" questionnaire last year. So at least they are aware of the advantages.

    EditPoly in Max is a particularly powerful modifier and unique to Max. But many use Lightwave's layer system in a similar manner to quickly archive and create geometry before pasting back into the main model. It may not be truly non-destructive but it is much like Adobe Illustrator's "endless" artboard in that it allows designers to refine in a safe space before committing.

  4. #64

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris S. (Fez) View Post
    Been using Max alongside Lightwave practically seamlessly since the release of OD Tools. For procedural geometry the Max modifier stack is amazing (definitely keep a copy of the non-collapsed file for future edits), but it always ends up in Lightwave Modeler for finesse and cleanup.
    .

    EditPoly in Max is a particularly powerful modifier and unique to Max.
    indeed, i havn't found a 3d app that has a "edit poly modifier" in any other app for example Cinema4d, modo, blender or lightwave etc.
    houdini is a different kettle of fish of course!
    stee+cat
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    Q - How many polys?
    A - All of them!

  5. #65
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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    Houdini is the only "fullpackage" 3d app I have not investigated in any depth, so I have no idea. But I think an EditPoly modifier would be a great fit for Lightwave, especially since EndoMorphs already provide similar functionality that could be expanded in terms of non-destructive selections and such that can survive dramatic geometry edits.

  6. #66

    This is why people always like to say it's 'fast' which is really just another way of saying, I don't have to worry about all this other stuff like objects, stacks, channels, references, etc.... Of course, its all the 'other stuff' that really takes modeling to an entirely different level.
    yes / no

    if a Modeler has very little need for those features, stacks, channels, references, then LightWave will be fast for their workflow.

    for the once who heavily really on those features (there are many onboard that ship) LightWave Modeler will be quite slow.






    NewTek is working on it...


    personally it works quite alright for me, (Different Artists, Different Needs)
    but i really feel the need of "Smart Boolean" operations.
    Last edited by erikals; 05-29-2019 at 05:54 PM.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by cresshead View Post
    indeed, i havn't found a 3d app that has a "edit poly modifier" in any other app for example Cinema4d, modo, blender or lightwave etc.
    houdini is a different kettle of fish of course!
    There is the Correction Deformer in Cinema that works in a similar way - access to modify points/edges/polys of parametric objects without the need to make them editable, ability to apply other Deformers, Falloffs or Selection Sets to parts of the parametric object's geometry.

  8. #68
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    Pure procedural modeling can be tedious for many tasks.

    Best is hybrid modeling using simple but powerful polygonal and spline tools in combination with procedural features - at least for me.

    That would be possible in LightWave - but only in Layout
    in my opinion.

    Layout is geometry aware now - isn't it?

    OpenVDB modeling is another modeling realm that can be very easy and powerful to use. OpenVDB in Layout 2019 is still limited, slow and only applicable for simple operations - good for effects but not for modeling - but it's a start.

    Implement polygonal (both parametric and polygonal) primitives with Translate, Bevel and Extrude operations, maybe simple Brushes as well as common Selection tools on a Poly/Edge/Point level in Layout combined with an easy-to-use OpenVDB Volume modeling stack (it should accept Primitives, Geometry, Instances, parametric Text, Boolean CSG Operations, Splines, Filters, Falloffs, Noises, maybe Particles). If done right it could boost the LightWave functionality a lot and it would be non-destructive. From there more goodies and advanced modeling tools can be implemented with time. In the meantime there is still Modeler.

    Using procedural modeling tools can be very easy - for example Symmetry, Sweeps, Lathes, Lofts, Cage Deformers, Displacement, ShrinkWrap, Smoothing, Bevel/Extrude, Bend/Twist/Taper/Bulge/Shear/Squash/Stretch/Melt, Cloners, Booleans, Subdivision, Poly Reduction, LOD, Fracture, Text, Volumes, Sculpt Layers - in combination with Polygons, Splines, Fields/Falloffs, Particles, Brushes, Bones, VertexMaps, Effectors and Generators.

    Correcting diameters of tubes, thickness of objects, edge bevels, polygon detail level, topology, text, repeating details like screws or holes, symmetrical details, booleans or splines curves is incredible tedious and inefficient or even impossible in a pure polygonal modeling workflow. In addition to that, a unified app allows the use of dynamics, animation, object interaction (collision deformation for example) or bones for modeling operations.

    I hope to see simple but user friendly modeling tools (and finally Weight / Vertex Map painting) in the next version of LightWave Layout.

  9. #69

    Layout is geometry aware now - isn't it?
    yes, it is uncertain though how efficient the code is, what possibilities it opens.
    we'll have to wait and see.
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  10. #70
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Two things of procedural nature I like in blender that I wish I had in Lightwave, that is realtime fracture(blender fracture build set to autoexecute) I can turn it on and off at anytime,
    change fracture types and amount of chards at any type, add subdiv simple or catmull clark for either very smooth stone shards or sharp edges.

    For anything near in Lightwave you would need to have multiple objects or layers that you can fracture as you please and object replace them in layout.
    And I love the skin modifier and subdiv modifiers when setting up a rough skinned figure from simple lines, this is impossible to do in lightwave since it hasnīt
    got any skin technique at all in layout as a modifier to be turned on and off.

    Then of course the Undo system, I can undo pretty much everything in blender if I by mistake change color or nodes that didnīt look good, I just canīt do that in Lightwave, they have started a process to
    make it more undoable, but the question is if it can only get so far.

  11. #71

    they have started a process to make it more undoable, but the question is if it can only get so far.
    it can go as far as they want it to, the challenge is the time it takes to code.
    you can somewhat hack it by writing scripts, but that is an "ugly" hack.
    we will see a more non-destructive workflow in the future, but coding takes time, heck, even my super-simple autohotkey scripts take forever to write...

     
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post

    Layout is geometry aware now - isn't it?
    i dont think so. afaict its same as it always was right back to 6 series and beyond.

  13. #73

    no, Chuck confirmed that it was added.

    that said, the proof is in the...

    hopefully LW2020 will show some directions.
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    no, Chuck confirmed that it was added.

    that said, the proof is in the...
    .

    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #75
    I love that. How true.
    So few DO LightWave any more; many TALK about it, though, a whole bunch.

    Many are so upset at the WORDS not spoken by the LW3D group that, though they used to MAKE things for LW they now spew words of ill at it.

    I am privileged to DO and TALK LW daily. There are a lot of new, artful tools out there. Scupltors and bricklayers still get jobs because a set of skills are that -- a set of skills.

    When I think about it, LightWave is my little world. I can do there what I please and NO ONE, and I mean -NO ONE! - can tell me what to do there. It's an amazing peace of mind.

    I wish for you all a peace of mind with what ever artful tool you use.
    Robert Wilson, MA Deaf Ed.
    Indiana Deaf School
    This e-mail may contain information protected under the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act.

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