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Thread: What is LightWave when you really think about it?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by RPSchmidt View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "simple, direct modeling".

    It's like you are trying to reduce Modeler's capabilities to the level of an app you would find for a mobile phone or something.... when anyone who has used LW knows that is inaccurate; the evidence is in the work.

    I.
    I'm simply stating that Modeler has not really been a focus at all for LW development for the almost last two decades since the original team departed, with the exception of a few notable updates. And as far as anyone who uses LW would know, I used LW for a large part of that time so I'm well aware and aware of how far things have moved the goalpost elsewhere. Modeler's UV tools are outdated, it lacks any type of proceduralism and that includes 3rd party tools, many things are still not interactive, most functions are't animatable (which would also fall under lack of proceduralism) and does not deal with objects, only points, polys and edges ('mostly' on the edges part') so have fun translating a mesh with a few million polys around easily (translating, not talking about rotating the viewport which is largely meaningless in terms of performance). But then that's mostly why I call it simple is because you lose an entire world of functionality based on the fact that Modeler is only a component not obejct based application. Just take a look at Blenders object modifier system to see how powerful modeling can be(or any other app really). Modeler and Layout were made separately back when computer memory was scarce. Don't be fooled into think that is somehow an advantage today, no one wants to copy that.
    Last edited by hrgiger; 05-28-2019 at 08:22 AM.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    I don't think you see. Chat with him on the discord channel. Learn something.

    He said he has pretty much converted to Houdini, just uses modeler now , maybe you should chat with him if you weren't aware. Learn something. And good for him. I'm sure it has opened up a lot of new opportunities for him that he doesn't have to spend all his time building a lot of tool functionality that Houdini already does by default.

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    For me..Lightwave feels more easier and simpler to select things..in various modes by either spacebar switch to select polygons, vertices, edges..or simply click on the buttons which says exactly what it is, try that in Houdini..which has a completely different way of selecting things and it is buried much deeper to acess in my opinion, standard copy and paste in lightwave is simple but rules by the ctrl c and v, you do not even get that in blender modeling.
    Well you do, it just works differently. It works by separating the components and joining them with another object. So not as 'direct' as Modeler but for all intents and purposes, gives the same result and of course adds numerous benefits working in an object based system.

  3. #33
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    He said he has pretty much converted to Houdini, just uses modeler now , maybe you should chat with him if you weren't aware. Learn something. And good for him. I'm sure it has opened up a lot of new opportunities for him that he doesn't have to spend all his time building a lot of tool functionality that Houdini already does by default.



    Well you do, it just works differently. It works by separating the components and joining them with another object. So not as 'direct' as Modeler but for all intents and purposes, gives the same result and of course adds numerous benefits working in an object based system.
    what did you refer to?
    blender or houdini.
    but no..not as direct as lw modeler...direct was kind of the
    keyword.

    Well for blender ctrl copy is there, ctrl v for pasting needs another selection option to choose before committing.

  4. #34
    Blender. And yes not as direct as I mentioned. But again, tradeoffs for the added benefits.

  5. #35
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Blender. And yes not as direct as I mentioned. But again, tradeoffs for the added benefits.
    Absolutely, you have some other benefits in blender for sure, not sure if I could make a scripted shortcut or if it is available, would still like to have the plain ctrl-v for pasting without being interfered with other needed options before committing.

    Note...several times I go ..why can I not do that like I do in Lightwave with blender, and Vice versa of course.

    Developers of these two software should take notes of suggestions from users..and see if it makes sense, that means both ways..where lightwave could do it better in a blender fashion, it should, and where blender can do better in a good Lightwave way, it should, if it makes sense that is)
    So describing why blender is so good at one thing..should serve as constructive criticism and a guideline to come up with something equal or better in Lightwave, not to be focused on as some form of clank down on Lightwave.

  6. #36
    I guess Houdini would work well for people that are doing very specific kinds of work but I have never seen Houdini as a complete or even close to complete 3D solution. I see it as being useful on very specific projects since there are many things that are still much faster and more easily done in Lightwave. I guess Houdini would appeal to those who like procedural workflows.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    I'm simply stating that Modeler has not really been a focus at all for LW development for the almost last two decades since the original team departed, with the exception of a few notable updates....
    I'm not arguing what LW lacks; the only issue I have is when general statements are made that are only partially true.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    it lacks any type of proceduralism
    If I completely take it out of the context that Layout is the other half of Lightwave and that Modeler is what it is... a 3d modelling tool... then you have a point.

    But luckily, Newtek doesn't sell half of Lightwave. They sell the whole thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Modeler's UV tools are outdated
    Well, yes.

    So are 3d Studio Maxs'. So are Mayas'. And Blenders' aren't so hot either.

    Fairly certain that's why companies like Allegorithmic (Substance Painter), Rizom Lab (Rizom-UV), and Pilgway (3d Coat) exist. To fill that void across all of these applications that have really never given their UV tools the attention that they needed.

    I have LW, 3d Studio Max, and Blender, but 3d Coat still got my money.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    so have fun translating a mesh with a few million polys around easily
    So far, I have had zero issues manipulating meshes with Modeler, and I have created some pretty dense meshes. Easily upwards of 2-3 million polys.

    Now, Layout, on the other hand; that is where things get a wee bit slow with dense meshes.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Modeler and Layout were made separately back when computer memory was scarce
    And that's really the root of your complaint, and has been for some time. The lack of unification of Lightwave into a single platform.

    That's fine. I completely understand your viewpoint.

    But don't try to apply your arguments to half of a software solution and validate them by excluding the other half.

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Don't be fooled into think that is somehow an advantage today, no one wants to copy that.
    But that's pretty much the environment we are working in now, and have been for years.

    If given a choice that excluded cost, would the majority of 3d artists rely on the renderer that comes bundled with their software? Or would they choose a third-party solution?

    If given a choice that excluded cost, would the majority of 3d artists rely on the UV tools that come bundled with their software? Or would they choose a third-party solution?

    If given a choice that excluded cost, would the majority of 3d artists rely on the particle tools that come bundled with their software? Or would they choose a third-party solution?

    So what you end up with is a 3d software with a third-party UV / material editor, a third-party particle generator, and a third-party rendering solution.

    There simply isn't a single software solution in existence that fulfills every artists' requirements and it's unlikely there will ever be one.

    Blender gets very close; but even there, even in spite of the constant work of many dedicated programmers, Blender users still find themselves seeking third party solutions.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Apart from that I do not have syflex, there is nothing in that thread that can help me get faster rendertimes, I already practice whatever was in there for lower rendertimes..but the crucial factor isnīt really final render,
    but how much I can get as close to instant feedback as possible...that means fast VPR feedback and for me it is of crucial artistic freedom to get such feedback, OpenGL isnīt enough.
    to me it is the opposite, the final render is more important, but we have different needs.
    i certainly can see both sides...
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  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by RPSchmidt View Post
    I'm not arguing what LW lacks; the only issue I have is when general statements are made that are only partially true.


    Of course LW are two apps. But we were talking about modeling were we not? There is nothing procedural about modeler. Everything it does and everything third parties do are completely destructive in modeler and 99% of everything modeler does is not able to be animated in Layout. I dont' see how LightWave also shipping with Layout changes that argument.
    I haven't used Mayas or Max's UV tools but I've seen enough tutorials in them to know that the UV tools might not be the brightest thing out there, but they're still a far cry away from LW's UV set which lacks a lot of functionality(and pretty sure Maya uses Unfold 3D at least for packing directly in app which is great). And yes, of course third party tools like Rizom or 3DCoat are good for UVs because they can specialize(substance painter has no UV tools), but then the whole point is to rely on third parties when it becomes necessary. Modo has great UV tools and for the most part, it does most of what I need but Rizom fills in where it doesn't. But sometimes you just need a simple unwrap, relax and pack sending everything to rizom to have to relax and pack things would get annoying quick.

    And this isn't about finding an uber app that does everything. That's not the point. Of course people use different apps. The whole point of this thread was to suggest that LW is a base for third party tools. I simply suggested that every app is that (which is exactly what you're suggesting here so that we are in agreement). However you objected to me defining Modeler as simple so not sure what any of this last part has anything to do with that. Modeler pushes points, polygons and edges. Period. Modeler has no idea what an 'object' is so it just lacks any complexity. Hence, simple. Its not intended to be a slight on LW, it just is what it is. Some people want or need more than that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    Absolutely, you have some other benefits in blender for sure, not sure if I could make a scripted shortcut or if it is available, would still like to have the plain ctrl-v for pasting without being interfered with other needed options before committing.
    There is a copy/paste addon I'm pretty sure so for sure it could be scripted.
    Last edited by hrgiger; 05-28-2019 at 10:58 AM.

  10. #40
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas Jordan View Post
    I guess Houdini would work well for people that are doing very specific kinds of work but I have never seen Houdini as a complete or even close to complete 3D solution. I see it as being useful on very specific projects since there are many things that are still much faster and more easily done in Lightwave. I guess Houdini would appeal to those who like procedural workflows.
    Agreed, I once tried to model in Houdini, not the nicest experience and I went straight back to LW to model. Now i would go to LW or indeed Blender to model. Some nice modeling tools in Blender and less destructive than LW Modeler. Really depends on what im modeling. Sculpting i would still do in ZBrush even though Blenders sculpting is no slouch and LW does have metamorphic. On the subject of MM, i find that it was more reliable as a plugin in 2015 than i do now integrated in 2019. Seem to get more crashes and freeze-ups in 2019 MM.
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  11. #41
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    He said he has pretty much converted to Houdini, just uses modeler now...
    I think you're having trouble with the word "converted".
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  12. #42
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    I think you're having trouble with the word "converted".
    If Oliver said he "pretty much converted to Houdini" in so many words, I'd like to hear it from Oliver himself.

  13. #43

    Houdini is nice, especially when you Love nodes.

    i don't    

    it is no doubt a powerful addition though.
    Last edited by erikals; 05-28-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    I think you're having trouble with the word "converted".
    Not at all, however I do use the term loosely however as he was using LW, Modo, Maya, among many other apps so there is no 'converted in that sense', its simply picking up another app. However, the bulk of what he was using LW for he is now doing in Houdini. Because... well, its Houdini.

    And Chris, I just saw a quote posted from him where someone had asked him if he had entirely converted to Houdini since he wasn't around as much in the LW chat and his response was pretty much. That he just uses modeler for most stuff that he needs to model. From Discord. The LW Discord server is a public thing, you can join if you want and see and ask for yourself. I was asked to leave last year some time after Steph was drunk and in a mood and so I left.

  15. #45
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris S. (Fez) View Post
    If Oliver said he "pretty much converted to Houdini" in so many words, I'd like to hear it from Oliver himself.
    Oliver did say he was a "convert" in the context of struggling with an interface and toolset for many years and finally getting it in recent months. He was discussing Houdini and others were discussing Blender at the time.

    However, he is still on these forums (posting as recently as yesterday) and in the LW discord channel (posting as recently as yesterday). He's also keeping up with any reported issues with the OD toolset, often responding to input within 24 hours. He just posted an update this month with new tools.

    So I am struggling with the idea of conversion. Oliver seems terrible at it.

    This FUD sounds much like when people were saying Denis and NT were at odds. Then we discovered there were legitimate communication problems and then Denis came out with some awesome updates and new tools. It is true that LW 3rd parties are thinning but we don't need to usher them out the door with pointless negativity.
    Last edited by raymondtrace; 05-28-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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