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Thread: David Ridlen post on why NT marketing & communication needs improvement....Will it?

  1. #151

    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Here are thousands of instances. 2 seconds to render in Eevee. Of course, the viewport looks just about identical.

    Attachment 144995
    all dense-geometry Eevee renders i've seen has animated splotching.
    not sure, but i bet that's one of the reasons the Blender Foundation says it will not replace Cycles.
    i'd LOVE to be wrong, and that Eevee is the Revolution that you claim it is.

    is Eevee great? Yes
    is Eevee a close to complete Cycles replacement? Not by far.
    ...but please prove me wrong.

    where are the Grass and Fur Eevee animations that do not Flicker/Splotch?
    Last edited by erikals; 05-15-2019 at 09:54 AM.
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  2. #152

    hrgiger.... is there any specific tool / tools / workflows where you feel LightWave excel ? plugins or not.

    not saying there must be.
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  3. #153
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    perhaps.


    yes, but at a slow phase.
    As for me comparing blender fire and smoke VS turbulenceFD..

    Volumetric rendering...Way faster in blender than TFD in lightwave which is CPU only..so I can not agree on it being slow, but it depends on your graphics card of course (if you use GPU which can have limits on resoluion) and blender fire and smoke which also comes with a PBR volumetric model, turbulenceFD and lightwave doesnīt.
    The turbulenceFD rendering of smoke is just too slow..and if you activate multiple scattering it becomes ridiculous slow with constant calculation and time bar showcasing it for every shading tweak you do, in blender that isnīt the case.

    What seems to be better in turbulence though is the quality of the resolution, where blender often has stepping issues if you do not set your resolution high enough in various areas, so it is trickier to get right I think, tweaking of the fireshader curves in lightwave and TFD is horribly slow..if you use VPR, if not it will be hard to tell what you tweak so it really needs to improve in that area.

    TurbulenceFD seem to be faster when simulating at higher scales and resolutions though than blender, but it lacks both fire and smoke openGL presentation..which blender has.
    The native forces in blender affects both rigid bodies and fluids, in lightwave and with TFD that is not the case, any TFD force will only affect the fluids..not any rigid body.

    Guess you need octane if you want speedy tfd renders.

    And Blender has weight paint emission for fluids, lightwave and TFD doesnīt.

    To Note..
    If you do use GPU rendering in blender, you have to be careful and not having to low step size, cuda rendering may fail in such case (low step size= high quality)

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    hrgiger.... is there any specific tool / tools / workflows where you feel LightWave excel ? plugins or not.

    not saying there must be.
    I'm probably the wrong person to ask. I obviously feel like LW wasn't contributing anything to the way I work now so my last version of LW was 2015. Of course I supported Viktor/LWCAD while I was using LW because he was the only thing adding anything to Modelers outdated toolset. But in the end, LWCAD, 3rd powers, OD tools, sensei... can't make up for the kinds of procedural tools that exist today in every app except for LW. Not their fault, just a LW limitation.
    LightWave is special to people that have used it for any length of time and I get it. I certainly stuck around longer then it made sense to do so. I wanted it to succeed, wanted it to be a tool that was taken seriously and supported. If people enjoy using it, they should. But in my view, LW would be the wrong choice for anyone starting out today. There would be no benefit it it for them when there are other viable options, especially if they want to work in this field.

  5. #155
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    thing is, still faster and easier to do stuff in modeller with said plugin devs tools than other 3d apps. why i still use it. there is something there.
    you missed out pictrix, without those tools, it would not be but then they are dead so if anything in modeller changes to break them, the party is over.

    i still find that even within focus of dev in layout? it is the main problem with lightwave.
    no snapping, no live array tools, no industry standard qwerty ‘maya’ shortcuts, no decent painting tools, no gpu support, no point, poly and edge support, no good curve support and deformations. it’s still the area that needs focus.
    Last edited by gar26lw; 05-15-2019 at 01:03 PM.

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    thing is, still faster and easier to do stuff in modeller with said plugin devs tools than other 3d apps. why i still use it. there is something there.
    you missed out pictrix, without those tools, it would not be but then they are dead so if anything in modeller changes to break them, the party is over.
    Sigh. Gar26lw, that is a such a tired argument and just a falsehood. It also so incredibly generalized to simply say, oh modeler is faster to so something than another app. Maybe that's true for you because you simply don't know those other apps, and if you do, likely not as well as you know modeler because you're likely not spent the time or due diligence to vet that statement you're making. I can assure you, that is just ignorance talking (as in lack of knowing). I know that because I believed that noise at one time also. What you're not factoring in with such a statement are things like how much faster other apps are in terms of their modeling performance, their workflows or even their ability to change their minds about a particular modeling operation at any point during the modeling. What's faster, rebuilding a part of an object because its not working out, or changing some settings like you can in a procedural method? Is it faster to generate a bunch of polygon duplicates or is it faster to work with modeling instances which change as you change the base shape in various array options. Modeler is no faster or slower than working in any other type of app that I've encounted. However, the lack of options as well as the lack of flexibility in workflow are just hinderances to working efficiently. So faster? Not overall by any means.

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post

    all dense-geometry Eevee renders i've seen has animated splotching.
    not sure, but i bet that's one of the reasons the Blender Foundation says it will not replace Cycles.
    i'd LOVE to be wrong, and that Eevee is the Revolution that you claim it is.

    is Eevee great? Yes
    is Eevee a close to complete Cycles replacement? Not by far.
    ...but please prove me wrong.

    where are the Grass and Fur Eevee animations that do not Flicker/Splotch?
    As far as rendering with Eevee, I haven't seen a problem with flickering and Eevee doesn't have 'set' output, you can increase the number of samples it uses. For this render, I only used 128 samples, and it rendered at about 4 seconds or so per frame. Could double it and probably remove any grain in the render you see in it. Eevee very much can be used for final rendering output for a lot of cases.


  8. #158

    lots of splotches in that video, quite a lot,

    but i'll give it some further test-runs in the near future with 1500 samples or such.

    might work. no luck so far, but who knows.

    impressive AntiAliasing though.
    Last edited by erikals; 05-15-2019 at 02:14 PM.
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  9. #159
    As I already said, splotches are from the samples, that has nothing to do with flickering. I can increase the samples to as many as I need to clear any noise/splotches up in the render. You could probably get by with double that or even triple. 1500 might be overkill.
    Last edited by hrgiger; 05-15-2019 at 02:17 PM.

  10. #160

    i do believe that something like Eevee is the future of rendering, so there is that. i'll investigate further.
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  11. #161
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    Srsly tho, why has this thread turned into THIS thread? I thought we were talking about marketing and customer outreach and how newtek needs to do it better, and now we are talking about blender renderers. Again.

  12. #162
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    Srsly tho, why has this thread turned into THIS thread? I thought we were talking about marketing and customer outreach and how newtek needs to do it better, and now we are talking about blender renderers. Again.
    Indeed. I'm just hoping Steve and Chuck are doing okay. This is a very loose leash.
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  13. #163
    Well getting back again to the core of this thread, feel free to suggest ideas for marketing and customer outreach all you want. Just like the hundreds of threads on this very topic over the years on this board. They might even be acknowledged at some point by a NT/VizRT representative. But it will be for all intents and purposes, ignored. Just like all the ones in the past. Which is exactly the kind of thing David Ridlen was suggesting.

  14. #164
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    Seems somewhat more likely that Newtek/Vizrt might glean some useful input (however likely or unlikely that may be) if it stays more or less on topic. There was som hard and good criticism that is getting buried. Just saying.

  15. #165

    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    Indeed. I'm just hoping Steve and Chuck are doing okay. This is a very loose leash.
    on the other hand, it is crucial that NT understands the market itself.
    and this thread is All about that, imho.
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