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Thread: David Ridlen post on why NT marketing & communication needs improvement....Will it?

  1. #106
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    I wouldn't say it's Newtek's fault that Apple killed the LightWave UI. It's only Apple's fault.
    Sort of feel it's a bit unfair to blame them for this at all.

    EDIT
    ---
    Ah, just saw you say they fixed it in 2 days.
    I've always found LightWave support to be amazing to be honest. Still have major bugs open with Autodesk and 3dsmax, but they simply won't fix them. Newtek have fixed hundreds of mine.
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  2. #107
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    Newtek should probably have released a patch for 2015 for Mac to fix the UI problem. Particularly since they chose to have lightwave 2015 be the only way to render using the old engine. They even released a new plugin to load lwo3 files in lw2015 and earlier, so this was clearly the “official” solution. Unfortunately About a month after the new version of lightwave came out Apple released an OS update, and Mac users were forced to either migrate projects into lw2018+ Which isn’t always cut and dry or work blindly in lw2015 with a busted interface. Yes, this was because of something Apple did, but Newtek sells a product for OSX, which means they have a responsibility to keep up with the updates. To be fair, the current version they sell works fine (even if 2019 is more than a little buggy), but if part of the sales pitch is “don’t worry, you can always fire up 2015 if you need the old renderer” That version should ideally work.

    I understand that it is hard for Newtek to justify the effort of updating a nearly 5 year old piece of software that they no longer sell in on a platform that a minority uses in order to fix a bug that they didn’t cause, but it probably would have gone a long way towards creating customer goodwill (For the few of us that use Mac at any rate), and customer goodwill is what this thread is all about.

  3. #108
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    I wouldn't say it's Newtek's fault that Apple killed the LightWave UI. It's only Apple's fault.
    By that logic, the many plugins and catalogs of existing content broken by LW2018's release were "only Newtek's fault".

    Realistically, the problem isn't the fix for LW2018, it's putting forth LW2015 as the solution for keeping existing content working, then not updating it as well. Apple bears some responsibility for changes (not all), but it wasn't Apple telling customers to keep using LW2015 for existing content, nor Apple who failed to provide any fully forward-compatible content migration path.

    LW2018's UI was fixed with minor changes, Apple did provide a fairly simple, direct path forward. In contrast, there still isn't any visually-compatible content migration path for LW2015 content from Newtek, nor any strong evidence one is coming.
    Last edited by jwiede; 05-12-2019 at 03:07 PM.
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  4. #109
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    if they don’t already they should have 2015.3 as an option in the store or allow it to be used when owning 2018+

  5. #110
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gar26lw View Post
    if they don’t already they should have 2015.3 as an option in the store or allow it to be used when owning 2018+
    Unfortunately, due to the UI issue, LW2015's UI is messed up on macOS Mojave (and forward). What I find disappointing is that the fix appears minor and direct (by Newtek's own words, and by the scope of what actually changed in the hotfix), so it really shouldn't take that much to back-port it and get LW2015's UI fixed. It's a valid, serious pain point for Mac LW users, yet there's been no statement of intent or evidence of effort towards addressing it. Worse, even if Apple had maintained perfect forward-compatibility in this case, requiring LW2015 for existing content still wouldn't represent a reliable, lasting solution for either Mac or Windows LW, more significant OS incompatibilities will arise (on both platforms) -- it's not a case of "if", it's just a case of "when".

    Expecting perfect, "invisible" binary forward-compatibility isn't a reasonable expectation, from Apple, Microsoft or Newtek. Expecting that there be some reliable document/content migration path forward, OTOH, is a wholly reasonable expectation (and operational necessity) from customers -- particularly for creative platforms where content/document libraries represent very real and valuable investments of time and effort with the expectation of reusability (though, really, even in the most basic cases of document editing apps, as well).

    Time will tell if Newtek/Vizrt do anything to try and mitigate this unfortunate situation, but it's difficult to believe that's a priority when there's no mention or evidence of it being one. What's happening with LW quality is a similar situation in many ways, and unfortunately, there's little indication of addressing that being a priority either.
    Last edited by jwiede; 05-12-2019 at 05:04 PM.
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  6. #111
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    I think it is reasonable to expect some degree of continued support for a piece of software for at least a couple of years after it is no longer available for purchase. Considering that Newtek sells lightwave as a perpetual license and upgrades must be purchased separately, 2015.3 should have seen continued Bare-bones support until maybe the end of THIS year, which clearly includes basic OS Compatibility.

    That said, at this point it is probably too late to make much of difference. This is something newtek should have done over a year ago. Those of us Mac users that have upgraded have likely come to terms with the situation, and those who haven’t upgraded haven’t been able to use the software for order a year anyways, and probably have found other solutions.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Unfortunately, due to the UI issue, LW2015's UI is messed up on macOS Mojave (and forward). What I find disappointing is that the fix appears minor and direct (by Newtek's own words, and by the scope of what actually changed in the hotfix), so it really shouldn't take that much to back-port it and get LW2015's UI fixed. It's a valid, serious pain point for Mac LW users, yet there's been no statement of intent or evidence of effort towards addressing it. Worse, even if Apple had maintained perfect forward-compatibility in this case, requiring LW2015 for existing content still wouldn't represent a reliable, lasting solution for either Mac or Windows LW, more significant OS incompatibilities will arise (on both platforms) -- it's not a case of "if", it's just a case of "when".

    Expecting perfect, "invisible" binary forward-compatibility isn't a reasonable expectation, from Apple, Microsoft or Newtek. Expecting that there be some reliable document/content migration path forward, OTOH, is a wholly reasonable expectation (and operational necessity) from customers -- particularly for creative platforms where content/document libraries represent very real and valuable investments of time and effort with the expectation of reusability (though, really, even in the most basic cases of document editing apps, as well).

    Time will tell if Newtek/Vizrt do anything to try and mitigate this unfortunate situation, but it's difficult to believe that's a priority when there's no mention or evidence of it being one. What's happening with LW quality is a similar situation in many ways, and unfortunately, there's little indication of addressing that being a priority either.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Unfortunately, due to the UI issue, LW2015's UI is messed up on macOS Mojave (and forward). What I find disappointing is that the fix appears minor and direct (by Newtek's own words, and by the scope of what actually changed in the hotfix), so it really shouldn't take that much to back-port it and get LW2015's UI fixed. It's a valid, serious pain point for Mac LW users, yet there's been no statement of intent or evidence of effort towards addressing it. Worse, even if Apple had maintained perfect forward-compatibility in this case, requiring LW2015 for existing content still wouldn't represent a reliable, lasting solution for either Mac or Windows LW, more significant OS incompatibilities will arise (on both platforms) -- it's not a case of "if", it's just a case of "when".

    Expecting perfect, "invisible" binary forward-compatibility isn't a reasonable expectation, from Apple, Microsoft or Newtek. Expecting that there be some reliable document/content migration path forward, OTOH, is a wholly reasonable expectation (and operational necessity) from customers -- particularly for creative platforms where content/document libraries represent very real and valuable investments of time and effort with the expectation of reusability (though, really, even in the most basic cases of document editing apps, as well).

    Time will tell if Newtek/Vizrt do anything to try and mitigate this unfortunate situation, but it's difficult to believe that's a priority when there's no mention or evidence of it being one. What's happening with LW quality is a similar situation in many ways, and unfortunately, there's little indication of addressing that being a priority either.
    Lw 2015 is 5 years old.
    Which 3d software vendor still patches a year old software?

    Maintenance and support can be expensive.
    Isn't it only fair that after nearly 5 years of support for lw 2015, it was time to pull the plug and move on?

    Updating your os while still on old software isn't exactly prudent and expecting the vendor to release a patch after 5 years of release isn't reasonable imho.
    Last edited by Hail; 05-13-2019 at 04:06 AM.

  8. #113
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    By that logic, the many plugins and catalogs of existing content broken by LW2018's release were "only Newtek's fault".
    Yep, agree. How was it anyone else's fault? So, my logic is correct I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Realistically, the problem isn't the fix for LW2018, it's putting forth LW2015 as the solution for keeping existing content working, then not updating it as well. Apple bears some responsibility for changes (not all), but it wasn't Apple telling customers to keep using LW2015 for existing content, nor Apple who failed to provide any fully forward-compatible content migration path.

    LW2018's UI was fixed with minor changes, Apple did provide a fairly simple, direct path forward. In contrast, there still isn't any visually-compatible content migration path for LW2015 content from Newtek, nor any strong evidence one is coming.
    Don't think any other package has a good conversion route from old non PBR shaders to their new PBR ones.
    3ds max and Arnold, yes they have a conversion tool, but it never works and mostly makes an absolute hash of your scene.

    At least in LightWave you can RMB click surfaces and have that convert things. It doesn't always work out perfectly, as the shading differences are too great.
    I don't think it's very possible to fully convert an old-style shader in LW to PBR, it just doesn't work.

    I've not found it to be much of an issue to be honest, but do understand that many people have hundreds or thousands of assets that need converting to 2018 style shading. In that case, it is a pain... BUT, like I said, they'd be in the same boat if they were using 3ds Max and converting from Mental Ray to Arnold. I didn't hear many people moaning about converting assets from mental ray over to Arnold... why would you complain when you're going from an old renderer with no PBR materials and tonnes of 'gotchas' to Arnold which is a great renderer. Similarly, the new PBR renderer/shaders/lights in LW 2018 is so far above the old LW renderer in terms of making things look nice.


    I do sort of think NewTek should sort out 2015.3 to work on new Mac's but it would have to be as a gesture of goodwill really... otherwise they'll be supporting all versions of LW back to v6.5 or something.
    Which is another thing, Deuce does support users on ancient versions of LightWave, which he chooses to do, but which other software vendor ever does that?
    Last edited by lardbros; 05-13-2019 at 04:34 AM.
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  9. #114
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hail View Post
    Lw 2015 is 5 years old.
    Which 3d software vendor still patches a year old software?
    That it is 5 years old is irrelevant, it was the "current release version" up until Jan 2018 (only a year and a half ago), and again, it was Newtek that CHOSE to tell customers to rely on LW2015 for existing content. And yes, the other 3D pkg vendors absolutely DO provide patches for the "previous version" (which is what LW2015 was when LW2018 was released).

    "5 years old"...yeesh. Did you really want to bring up Newtek's little "Customers, GFY!" sabbatical, because that's the cause of the long gap -- and another extremely poor Newtek choice when it came to Lightwave customer handling.

    Other 3D pkgs didn't take away the abilities of their software to continue to render older-surfaced models and scenes, even after adding newer PBR render engines. Newtek chose to do so (remove the old renderer), while also choosing NOT to update/fix LW2015, leaving customers with NO options to access / view / render existing content in the way it was intended.

    Oh well, all that's left is denouement.
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  10. #115
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    That it is 5 years old is irrelevant, it was the "current release version" up until Jan 2018 (only a year and a half ago), and again, it was Newtek that CHOSE to tell customers to rely on LW2015 for existing content. And yes, the other 3D pkg vendors absolutely DO provide patches for the "previous version" (which is what LW2015 was when LW2018 was released).

    "5 years old"...yeesh. Did you really want to bring up Newtek's little "Customers, GFY!" sabbatical, because that's the cause of the long gap -- and another extremely poor Newtek choice when it came to Lightwave customer handling.

    Other 3D pkgs didn't take away the abilities of their software to continue to render older-surfaced models and scenes, even after adding newer PBR render engines. Newtek chose to do so (remove the old renderer), while also choosing NOT to update/fix LW2015, leaving customers with NO options to access / view / render existing content in the way it was intended.

    Oh well, all that's left is denouement.

    Other packages DID remove renderers and give you no valid option to convert. Autodesk did it with Mental Ray and 3ds Max when they moved to ART renderer and then Arnold!!

    - It used to have Mental Ray built in, and had done for YEARS.
    - They added their own renderer called ART (which didn't even have any passes rendering).
    - They then gave users Arnold the next year, but you can't use it on a render farm unless you license every node.

    Mental Ray wasn't PBR, so if you got the version where they included the Autodesk renderer ART, you would have had to convert all your materials to that new shader, which was PBR.

    Then when they shipped with Arnold, you either had to convert again manually to the Arnold shader, or hope that the PBR material for the ART renderer worked (in some cases it doesn't render correctly.)

    I also gather that Autodesk did the same with Maya didn't they?
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  11. #116
    As long as we can point to someone else who did something similar, we can feel better for the decisions made here. But on that front, I don't see it as realistic for Newtek, ok well VizRT to support or patch past versions of the software. They had ample time to do so during the 2015 cycle with 3 plus years . Always been in favor of breaking the past if necessary to make future versions better.
    Unfortunately in LightWave's case, the 'replacing systems' approach they took with the renderer seems to have stopped there. The whole points, polys, edges being visible now to Layout appears to not be the case and so no closer to having any real change in the way LW operates. So LW will sadly continue to continue its long path into irrelevance. Of course, its all up to VizRT now what path, if any, LW will follow. And more to the point of the original subject of the thread, whether or not VizRT will be any more cooperating or supportive of LW, of if they'll treat it with the same amount of indifference that Newtek had.
    Last edited by hrgiger; 05-13-2019 at 12:39 PM.

  12. #117

    The whole points, polys, edges being visible now to Layout appears to not be the case
    as far as i recall, Chuck told you in an earlier post that they were, just not available.
    when they will be available as a function however, no idea.

    there's no point in waiting for XYZ function in LightWave, just take the app for what it is, an alternative to Blender.
    why i don't use the other apps >

    Maya - subscription, cost, "slow" community (or at least used to be)
    Max - subscription, cost
    Blender - workflow *
    C4D - cost
    Modo - cost, lack of certain CA tools, node tree
    Houdini - workflow *

    though i do use *2 of these to some degree

    LightWave has a potential to be Fantastic, so don't rule it out.

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  13. #118
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    ...why i don't use the other apps >

    Maya - subscription, cost, "slow" community (or at least used to be)...
    We probably also don't use Maya because it is clearly doomed.

    https://www.wired.com/2001/11/maya-doomed-on-os-x/

    Predictions are futile, regardless of the 3D app.
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  14. #119
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    And more to the point of the original subject of the thread, whether or not VizRT will be any more cooperating or supportive of LW, of if they'll treat it with the same amount of indifference that Newtek had.
    Unfortunately, the more time that passes without someone from Vizrt stepping forth and discussing their intentions regarding Lightwave support and development, the more likely it is that Vizrt will not support or develop Lightwave.
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  15. #120

    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    We probably also don't use Maya because it is clearly doomed.
    https://www.wired.com/2001/11/maya-doomed-on-os-x/
    Predictions are futile, regardless of the 3D app.
    so far so good for Maya, but indeed, grab some Coffee, and check this Maya review...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx1RB4XDQ7Q#t=13m47s

    you get what you pay for... ?
    open question
    Last edited by erikals; 05-13-2019 at 05:33 PM.
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