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Thread: David Ridlen post on why NT marketing & communication needs improvement....Will it?

  1. #181
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLexx View Post
    Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).

    Regarding Modeler being faster or slower, my understanding is it is down to how any software is optimised, eg cpu cores (LW, Modo), ram (ZBrush) or gpu (Blender sculpting), but again I'm no expert on that. Maybe Modeler is comparably faster in some situations ?
    Some examples from my own experience. (Not Modo but Blender)

    In one project I needed to do a boolean trough a quite heavy mesh. I did it in modeler and it took modeler about 40 minutes to compute the boolean and the result was not satisfying. I did the same operation in Blender and it took only a few seconds to compute and the result was exactly what I was expecting. So in this case modeler was not a good choice.

    In another project I needed to animate some numbers changing according to the movement of another object. I did not even consider LW for that as it has no dynamic text tool. Did it in Blender very easy to setup.

    Another time I needed to get a line drawing in vector format from a 3D model in perspective view. Rendered out high res line renders from Lw and tried to convert it to vector images in Illustrator but it looked like crap or took too much time. Once again I went to Blender as it could export edge renders as svg and it worked out very nicely and fast.

    This does not mean that there are situations when Lw isn't good enough or fast enough.

    My own feelings after a year in Blender is that I don't only work faster, I also feel that I work with less frustration and less workarounds. It feels like the program is actually working with me and not against me. Most things in Blender is interactive & non-destructive while in LW its the opposite. But the best thing with Blender is that they don't develop with radio silence like NT.
    Last edited by Ztreem; 05-16-2019 at 03:56 AM.

  2. #182
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post
    The biggest problem for me with modeler is the destructive nature of bevels and boolean operations. Yes some tools need tightening up, many can be combined and a few other things and i hope we see that in the next few years. Modeler does need a lot of love now but it is still capable. All this talk of 3rd party plugins is really pointless, some of the big guns still rely on third party. How many different fire, smoke, water and particle addons are there for Max or indeed Maya, does this imply that these apps are crap or dont have them built in. What about renderers, loads of them out there but it does not mean that the native one is rubbish.
    A modifier stack for modelling would be awesome, don't get me wrong. The tricky thing is though, I use 3ds max and rarely ever need the modifier stack. Not saying it's not useful, but I tend to collapse stuff down to a polymesh anyway, once my bits and bobs have been done.

    For things like Booleans though, and animated Booleans or non-destructive rounding etc. lathes or thickens, rails extrudes and mirroring... it would be very VERY handy.
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  3. #183
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ztreem View Post
    Most things in Blender is interactive & non-destructive while in LW its the opposite. But the best thing with Blender is that they don't develop with radio silence like NT.
    Yeah, this is a biggie.

    As more and more developers are involving their communities, as they rely on them a fair bit... LightWave's development being so distant just alienates users.
    There's less 'buy-in' from users as they feel they lack any control in the direction LW is moving in... this is definitely bad for business, especially in this day and age of instant gratification and updates.
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  4. #184
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    The radio silence thing is definitely the biggest problem, and very much on topic!

  5. #185
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    So one question is what are the other softwares doing so special that LW is not, and I think there is more to it than just roadmaps. I know I keep mentioning from time to time, but comprehensive condensed LW end-to-end training on the LW website would be good, because for the other software this definitely has the effect of advertising the software.

    Maya, Max and ZBrush are "industry standard" so can stand on that. Blender has Blender Cookie, CG Masters, Blender Cloud and guys like Darrin Lile on Udemy and Lynda. Modo has resources designed so an architect, product modeller, photographer or film-maker can kinda see what they're getting into at a glance, plus William's output which is quite remarkable. In other words, if someone doesn't care what these might or might not do in the future, they could drift into them now because these courses are all targeted advertising and enticements.

    For LW, the net seems too far and wide, giving an overall dilute effect, and more than once I find a road leading back to William's old vids before he left the software. As a result LW comes over like it is preaching to those who were already converted, but surely the keyphrase should be "new users". One ""advantage of LW "" is a certain perception of KISS principles, and maybe advertising should play to that. Just my own rambling thoughts at this time.

    @ Ztreem, Many thanks to you for those examples.

  6. #186
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
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    There was a time when NT actually did an open beta and the community could influence the development. I think it was the best time with LightWave, it was really good and the community came closer together than ever and even did a film for showing off the new features. Unfortunately they stopped the open beta for the next version, a big mistake if you ask me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m8BxhpE_Yw

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLexx View Post
    Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).

    William left largely because of CORE. As a lot of users did. Then William found Modo and fell in love with it. It suits his way of working better as I imagine LW suits the way people who have stuck with LW. He also works for New Balance shoes where they use Modo in house.

    As far as why someone might use Modo over LW...

    Have you seen the UV tools? They're night and day between Modeler and Modo.
    Modo uses a work plane which makes modeling things easier. Create and edit your geometry on any surface and the tool handles align themselves to that surface or plane. Which also means you can work in a single perspective view easily without the need for a quad viewport which is a waste of screen real estate.
    The tool pipe consists of a system of action centers and falloffs that are used across the app, they're not limited to a single tool. So you can use the same falloff to add weight maps, create washouts with edge weighting, use gradients to further modify falloff behavior,soft selections... You can even combine multiple falloffs.
    With Modo's procedural system, almost any modeling operation is animatable.
    Mesh Fusion is SubD Booleans like meta mesh for LightWave except that its procedural and a native tool. Which means you can change your booelans at any time, even if you've saved the model and closed the file. You also have complete control over every mesh intersection at any time. You can adjust the density of the mesh at any time as well. It will create UV's, use Catmull Clark edge weighting and allow for multiple types of Booleans to be stacked like subtractions, additions as well as intersections, all in the same mesh.
    Modo fully supports edges and its catmull Clark SubDs aren't broken.
    The majority of Modo's tools are interactive.
    You can set your mesh layer visibility to any draw type and have multiple draw types in the viewport.
    It has an item mode which has multiple advantages including fast translation of heavier polygon mesh layers, grouping of items,scene visibility, shading, parenting, and scene organization.
    Symmetry works on all 3 axis.
    Native retopology.
    Modeling instances so you can create arrays, mirrors or copies of a mesh item and all the instances reflect the base object as you model.
    Very good snapping system.
    It has had smoothing groups for years. But also has vertex normal tools.
    Mesh paint (as in paint copies of an object or instances onto other surfaces)
    Everything is drag and drop in Modo. Drag models, materials, images, etc.. from the preset browser or from external sources. Drag items on top of other items to parent, or match another items scale, location or rotation, drag one mesh fusion item on top of another to perform Boolean operations.
    Selection sets for quick access to assignments of points, polys, or edges.
    There are plenty of other reasons as well, but those are just modeling related. There's numerous other benefits in other areas that assist while your modeling since Modo is a unified application, like preview rendering your model, using dynamics for placing items, using its deformer system for shaping items, already mentioned animation of modeling operations through its procedural modeling tools. Of course this is all because Modo has improved its modeling system with every release since its inception. Modeler has largely skipped updating modeler.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    William left largely because of CORE. As a lot of users did. Then William found Modo and fell in love with it. It suits his way of working better as I imagine LW suits the way people who have stuck with LW. He also works for New Balance shoes where they use Modo in house.

    .
    And we go back to CORE. and to be frank a big part of the problem was management.
    An open Beta type of development requires a management structure that has strong intestinal fortitude.
    Established power User will fight kicking and screaming about needed significant changes.
    Even if it means a death grip on the steering wheel of a car going a cliff. So management took the short term approach and decided to hear the loudest users only to sacrifice its future. The irony is that a lot of those same power users left/ retired or have died..

    ..and that is only for Core.
    Newtek is not alone in this respect, Autodesk is going to oblivion in a hand basket with its 3d graphics tools because of the same problem.

    HAVING SAID THAT the current rewrite is another story (Note: keep it up, your work is really appreciated).
    Last edited by robertoortiz; 05-16-2019 at 08:48 AM.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLexx View Post
    So one question is what are the other softwares doing so special that LW is not, and I think there is more to it than just roadmaps. I know I keep mentioning from time to time, but comprehensive condensed LW end-to-end training on the LW website would be good, because for the other software this definitely has the effect of advertising the software.

    Maya, Max and ZBrush are "industry standard" so can stand on that. Blender has Blender Cookie, CG Masters, Blender Cloud and guys like Darrin Lile on Udemy and Lynda. Modo has resources designed so an architect, product modeller, photographer or film-maker can kinda see what they're getting into at a glance, plus William's output which is quite remarkable. In other words, if someone doesn't care what these might or might not do in the future, they could drift into them now because these courses are all targeted advertising and enticements.

    For LW, the net seems too far and wide, giving an overall dilute effect, and more than once I find a road leading back to William's old vids before he left the software. As a result LW comes over like it is preaching to those who were already converted, but surely the keyphrase should be "new users". One ""advantage of LW "" is a certain perception of KISS principles, and maybe advertising should play to that. Just my own rambling thoughts at this time.

    @ Ztreem, Many thanks to you for those examples.
    I think Newtek/Vizrt should reach out to people doing interesting things in lightwave and help to share their work (and solicit their input). The old newsletter was actually quite decent up until 2017 with studio spotlights and cool stuff, now its just news and plugins. There is great work still being done, but the effect is pretty diluted because there doesn't appear to be any real attempt to aggregate it, and the community is not really strong enough to do it itself. Newtek must be involved. It is really hard to find good examples of cool work being done with lightwave and up to date high quality tutorials, often you just wind up finding ancient stuff. Newtek/Vizrt should be reaching out to people doing top tier work like David Ridlin and guys making cool tutorials like Mark Warner and doing whatever they can to spread the their work. It sure seems like people are eager to share. Every couple years some new guys start showing off cool stuff in lightwave and then just give up. Some of them probably move on to other software. but I bet a lot simply stop sharing because of the sense that nobody cares. All the cool stuff just gets dumped into this forum or on facebook or somewhere else like the deep dark depths of Youtube, and eventually gets covered over with garbage never to be seen again. Newtek should be using the blog or social media or some other channel to engage with the people who are actually doing stuff with lightwave, and get them involved, and aggregate their work.

    Personally I feel that the latest versions of lightwave have been making really great strides in terms of technical improvements (more is needed of course) but the Outreach is just not there like it should be.

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLexx View Post
    Could I ask a scenario where a LW user would need Modo instead of Modeler. I found it interesting that William went to Modo from LW, but despite the huge Blender thread on the forum, shows no current indication of being tempted any further afield, but I lack the advanced understanding to know why one would prefer Modo or Blender for modelling other than being a preference (disclaimer, I don't sculpt at all).

    Regarding Modeler being faster or slower, my understanding is it is down to how any software is optimised, eg cpu cores (LW, Modo), ram (ZBrush) or gpu (Blender sculpting), but again I'm no expert on that. Maybe Modeler is comparably faster in some situations ?
    i use modo in situations where i want instancing, cloning or deformations. sculpting as well but i find 3rd powers is generally good enough for most situations. i also prefer modo for uv’s but use 3dcoat on occasion. still use plg a fair bit as it’s pretty quick for most things, just when you want good relaxation, better packing or quad straightening then modo is better. i also use modo for still renders, baking and some io of troublesome fbx’s, oh and gltf.

    i use max for text, parametric tools, curves, cad model conversion, character skinning and rigging and some other hard surface stuff. i also use it for animation take export to unity and rendering with vray.

    i still prefer lightwave for most stuff, unity and unreal export, hard surface, stl and ply io, point cloud to mesh conversion in conjunction with meshlab, anything where i want to match cameras, general rendering and previz. need lwcad, pictrix, nitsara and odtools plus a whole bunch of other ones as it would it be unusable without them.

    i’m not really a one 3d app guy, i like using the tools and will bounce between packages depending on what does what faster and easier in the course of a project. lightwave being the hub, i think it’s the immediacy that i like as others mentioned.

    i also use maya for stuff similar to max.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypersuperduper View Post
    I think Newtek/Vizrt should reach out to people doing interesting things in lightwave and help to share their work (and solicit their input). The old newsletter was actually quite decent up until 2017 with studio spotlights and cool stuff, now its just news and plugins. There is great work still being done, but the effect is pretty diluted because there doesn't appear to be any real attempt to aggregate it, and the community is not really strong enough to do it itself. Newtek must be involved. It is really hard to find good examples of cool work being done with lightwave and up to date high quality tutorials, often you just wind up finding ancient stuff. Newtek/Vizrt should be reaching out to people doing top tier work like David Ridlin and guys making cool tutorials like Mark Warner and doing whatever they can to spread the their work. It sure seems like people are eager to share. Every couple years some new guys start showing off cool stuff in lightwave and then just give up. Some of them probably move on to other software. but I bet a lot simply stop sharing because of the sense that nobody cares. All the cool stuff just gets dumped into this forum or on facebook or somewhere else like the deep dark depths of Youtube, and eventually gets covered over with garbage never to be seen again. Newtek should be using the blog or social media or some other channel to engage with the people who are actually doing stuff with lightwave, and get them involved, and aggregate their work.

    Personally I feel that the latest versions of lightwave have been making really great strides in terms of technical improvements (more is needed of course) but the Outreach is just not there like it should be.
    facebook group makes all the cool info disappear into a black hole, would be better on here.

    the lack of great evangelists and cool wip work is a bit of a problem as is the lack of good tutorials. i wish there was some masterclass stuff on various aspects of the software.
    would be good for newtek to find all the old training that’s dead and put it in their site like they did with the plugins.

    the newsletter and articles were great, shame that’s died off.
    Last edited by gar26lw; 05-16-2019 at 10:29 AM.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by robertoortiz View Post
    And we go back to CORE. and to be frank a big part of the problem was management.
    An open Beta type of development requires a management structure that has strong intestinal fortitude.
    Established power User will fight kicking and screaming about needed significant changes.
    Even if it means a death grip on the steering wheel of a car going a cliff. So management took the short term approach and decided to hear the loudest users only to sacrifice its future. The irony is that a lot of those same power users left/ retired or have died..

    ..and that is only for Core.
    Newtek is not alone in this respect, Autodesk is going to oblivion in a hand basket with its 3d graphics tools because of the same problem.

    HAVING SAID THAT the current rewrite is another story (Note: keep it up, your work is really appreciated).
    sorry, but this is completely wrong.

    CORE was cancelled because the programmers aimed too high, and the underlying code ended up being a mess.

    right must be right, so just had to correct you on this one.

    ...so, where did i get that info? from the programmers themselves.

    they did try saving CORE, unfortunately it was just not possible.

    facebook group makes all the cool info disappear into a black hole, would be better on here.
    Jepzi!
    Last edited by erikals; 05-16-2019 at 10:49 AM.
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  13. #193
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Cool, now we're back to the Core Wars. Having traversed "Why I prefer Modo/Blender/Other", all we need a some Nazi references and a couple of car analogies and this thread will be complete.

    Having endured all of this meandering, I wish I had time to consider why the plea below is in any way incorrect. At first blush it's hard to fault, setting aside the somewhat understandable overuse of exclamation points.

    Quote Originally Posted by lardbros View Post
    Not sure why some of you guys still even come here. All you literally do is turn every thread into one where LightWave users HAVE to explain why it's being used... This is a LightWave forum you know!!! Go back to your blender or Modo forum if there's nothing productive or positive coming from being here.
    The usual answer runs along the lines of "Even though I don't use LW much anymore, I still come here in vain hopes of improvement in this or that respect" ... but that's wearing a little thin after all of these years, and perhaps requires a little suspension of disbelief on the part of the rest of us that is getting harder to grant.
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  14. #194

    Cool, now we're back to the Core Wars.
    i couldn't let old (dead or alive) LightWave users take blame for something that wasn't their fault. that just wasn't fair. thereby #192

    Not sure why some of you guys still even come here.
    because someone is wrong on the internet.

    i'll probably post more LightWave vs Blender videos on my Youtube channel in the near future,
    hopefully that will clutter the NewTek forum slightly less, and the Moderator can get to relax a bit.
    Last edited by erikals; 05-16-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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  15. #195
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    i couldn't let old (dead or alive) LightWave users take blame for something that wasn't their fault. that just wasn't fair. thereby #192
    Whereas I think there was blame enough to go around for all.

    This subject is arguably one of the most contentious of my career, and to this day entails every last person I talk to having a unique perspective and 'blame hierarchy'. I tend to fall into the 'I wish we hadn't blinked' camp, but even with that said there are far, far too many strands involved to really ever get to the bottom of it. Two things I'm 100% certain of is that this is extremely subjective, and - having been beaten to death for years - wearisome.

    So there was this Nazi tooling down the highway, and he stops at a bar where he meets a preacher, a politician and a three-legged dog ...
    --
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