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Thread: Animation AVI reported as corrupted or has no image

  1. #16
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    Microsoft should update the AVI specifications to a more modern version.
    Especially since Quicktime is not supported anymore on Windows platforms.
    With the advent of more advanced MP4 (and such) standardized "composite stream envelope" formats, the need for AVI (and Quicktime) and other proprietary envelope formats kind of disappeared. They're still useful for certain kinds of animation work, but even there standard codecs into standard envelopes ensures that most anything can read it. Even the big video editing pkgs now generally wrap their proprietary lossless/minimal-loss codecs' streams in standardized envelope formats. It also helps that even modern cameras now have hw support for processing/wrapping data into standard envelope formats, rather than just raw video stream formats like early digital-output cameras.
    John W.
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  2. #17
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shrox View Post
    Never!
    To little words to argument If in discovery mode, render to animation Was and Is a must..I couldnīt showcase the animation if it werenīt for the option to save preview quicktime, it has no option to save to image sequences, that was my case
    For anyone else ..Serious and with full versions..image seuences is a given workflow, though I still use the save preview when having a vpr preview animation going on, just for fast feedback on how it would look like in some cases and previewing the stuff in fusion.

    Once the preview is made within Lightwave VPR, it doesnīt really matter if it would crash or get corrupted, I wouldnīt save any time by going back and render out to images, note..this is with the exception that the preview is already made, the preview system for vpr is strictly Animation files and not image files.
    If you weré to go with the workflow of using low res images and render out for previews, that is a completely different thing, which also requires compilation processing after the render.

    Was about to upgrade to 2019 today..However, I have some issues with my card and the bank to resolve.

  3. #18
    Man of many cells. shrox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    To little words to argument ...
    I stand by my monolith, one word statement.
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  4. #19
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    With the advent of more advanced MP4 (and such) standardized "composite stream envelope" formats, the need for AVI (and Quicktime) and other proprietary envelope formats kind of disappeared. They're still useful for certain kinds of animation work, but even there standard codecs into standard envelopes ensures that most anything can read it. Even the big video editing pkgs now generally wrap their proprietary lossless/minimal-loss codecs' streams in standardized envelope formats. It also helps that even modern cameras now have hw support for processing/wrapping data into standard envelope formats, rather than just raw video stream formats like early digital-output cameras.
    Too many times the import of mp4/hevc files fails without a warning or explanation or alternative.
    If I drag mp4/hevc files to Fusion 9, more than 50% of those files are rejected. For some reason that is never reported.
    VLC media player also rejects mp4/hevc files that play fine in other applications.
    Vegas Pro 14...16 is unable to process mp4/hevc files correctly that have variable frame rate.
    Layout doesn't read or write mp4/hevc files at all.
    Resolve reads some AVI and ditched writing to AVI.

    Encoding to mp4/hevc requires cpu/gpu overhead and parameter tweaking to get best results.
    Many applications fail to support all verions, tiers, levels, chroma sub sampling, bits/ch, rgb/yuv, long GOP / intra frames only, etc.

    Something common is missing.
    To me this is not progress.

  5. #20
    Founding member raymondtrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    ...this is not progress.
    The incompatibilities you cite are due to progress...and the struggle for every reader/player to keep up with ever-evolving codecs. This is another of the many reasons why rendering to sequential image files is preferred. Save the video compression for the last step in production, right before the customer receives the product.

    Working with image sequences is not difficult. Here's an excellent [freely licensed] preview tool for image sequences: http://djv.sourceforge.net/
    LW7.5D, 2015, 2018, 2019 running portably on a USB drive on an Amiga 2500 running Wine.

  6. #21
    LightWave documentation BeeVee's Avatar
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    And I'm going to add it to the Getting Started with Rendering page in the docs too (https://docs.lightwave3d.com/display...with+Rendering). It already says to make sure you save everything before you hit F10, but this needs adding too

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  7. #22
    Registered User rdolishny's Avatar
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    OMG you didn't render out as an AVI did you?!? Always render out frames for this exact reason.

  8. #23
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymondtrace View Post
    The incompatibilities you cite are due to progress...and the struggle for every reader/player to keep up with ever-evolving codecs. This is another of the many reasons why rendering to sequential image files is preferred. Save the video compression for the last step in production, right before the customer receives the product.

    Working with image sequences is not difficult. Here's an excellent [freely licensed] preview tool for image sequences: http://djv.sourceforge.net/
    Thanks for the link. DJV_view seems to be very useful for preview. I'll download it this morning.

    I still wish that LW could support dragging entire directories into image fields, just like in Fusion.
    That would make the handling of image sequences a lot faster.

    The handling of image sequences by the OS, virus scanner, or FTP could use improvement too.
    These programs almost choke when dealing with 25.000 large files in one directory.

    You are correct with codecs. The problem is that we are getting used to rely on these codecs for ingest, intermediates and archive.

    To resolve the danger of incompatibility, in my opinion the OS should take back control with uncompressed formats (without clever codecs) with a flexible number of channels (RGBAD...), in a wide dynamic range, with a broad range of legal frame-rates.
    This allows the OS to handle clip based media transfer between every application.

    Uncompressed RGBA AVI has saved my deadlines more than once.
    It's simply not 'just' another codec.

  9. #24
    Registered User jbrookes's Avatar
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    .TGA is another good uncompressed file format.
    Favorite Waves: LW3.5, 5.6c, 7.5, 8.5, 9.6, 2015.

  10. #25
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    To resolve the danger of incompatibility, in my opinion the OS should take back control with uncompressed formats (without clever codecs) with a flexible number of channels (RGBAD...), in a wide dynamic range, with a broad range of legal frame-rates.
    The cameras, hardware and editing/manipulation pkgs are what basically drive all those formats' adoptions/usage/popularity. The OS side can do whatever they want, but if it isn't what the camera and editing apps producers want to use (and/or doesn't satisfy their wants/needs), it won't be adopted or used widely in those markets.
    John W.
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  11. #26
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Acquisition formats have different priorities compared to the universal fat pipelines between multiple applications.
    It's still not too late if Microsoft understands the difference.

  12. #27
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vncnt View Post
    Acquisition formats have different priorities compared to the universal fat pipelines between multiple applications.
    It's still not too late if Microsoft understands the difference.
    They do, but many of the relevant fingers are also quite burned from certain past efforts, so who knows.
    John W.
    LW2015.3UB/2019.1.4 on MacPro(12C/24T/10.13.6),64GB RAM, NV 980ti

  13. #28
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Hmm, I wonder if AviSynth could be helpful to create a flexible virtual AVI experience for me by encapsulating image sequences, then adding a header file and an index file. Maybe some additional conversion tools to glue the binary image files of any type into a single container to bypass the slow handling of all these files by the OS.

    It seems that AviSynth is still alive. Their latest stable build is 3 months old according to Wiki.

    I'll dive into this, maybe later this week.

  14. #29
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    As I mentioned previously, I use the open source utility FFMPEG to convert image sequences to video files using a little utility I wrote to format the command line (see below). You may want to take a look at this posting:

    https://superuser.com/questions/3474...mages-using-ff

    which gives a really excellent description of "Uncompressed", "Lossless", "Effectively Lossless", "Perceptually Lossless" types of encoding and the various command-line parameters used to produce these with FFMPEG from an input sequence, and why the other compressed forms might be acceptable.

    To get a lossless MOV or AVI output file, here the table of output options from the article:

    Code:
    $ ffmpeg -i frame%04d.png -c:v r10k output.mov
      ...or...                -c:v r210 output.mov
      ...or...                -c:v v410 output.mov
      ...or...                -c:v v408 output.mov
      ...or...                -c:v v308 output.mov
      ...or...                -c:v ayuv output.avi

    I use a little Windows utility I wrote to construct and execute the FFMPEG command line for the conversion, attached below, with the user interface:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	01_ConvertImageSequence_UI.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	337.0 KB 
ID:	144748

    It allows you to type in additional FFMPEG command-line switches, and if you really, REALLY want an uncompressed AVI file from a sequence of images, you could select the AVI output type, then type in:

    -c: ayuv

    into the FFMPeg Switches box:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	02_ConvertImageSequence_LosslessAVI.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	401.5 KB 
ID:	144747

    Note that the output of this is 145.2MB while the original PNG sequence of files (which is a Lossless compression algorithm) are only 42.6MB, so FFMPEG will do exactly what you ask and take a Losslessly-compressed PNG sequence, uncompress each frame, and package it into a huge AVI file.

    Probably worth at least experimenting with the Lossless and other options. Make sure LW can load the resulting animation file(s) before commiting, though!

    Good luck!
    mTp
    Attached Files Attached Files

  15. #30
    Super Member vncnt's Avatar
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    Conversion is not my/our problem. This is about the format.

    The problem is that we need fat pipelines (float), easy to handle (single file), transfer quickly (a bunch of files generates way too much overhead during ftp or copy/move), platform independent (avi vs mov), with native support in Lightwave (input + output) and other media applications, multi-channel, and play real-tme and in-sync without a glitch on any media player on your computer.

    Numbered image files are not the final solution.

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