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Thread: AE3 and PTZ operation - discussion about 'why'???!?!

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    Process was as follows:
    preset cam / * / select preset / * / select take
    AE3 shot change: 148 frames or 4.28 seconds
    Just a couple of more questions for discussion, keeping in mind I don't have AE3 and can't try this myself... Just some thoughts for what might be possible now while any changes are contemplated at NewTek.

    • Do you need to hit the * before you take the new camera shot? Is it because it is in the way on the UI and you want it out of the field of view or because your hand is already off the CS and you are taking care of it while it is roving? If you skipped that step and went straight to the take you might be able to shave some time off.
    • More of a question for Steve - is the command to open or close the Input Config macroable? The only command reference I have is from 2014 and I don't see it in there. I tried to record it on a SE 410 that I have handy here, but it didn't pick up opening the window itself. If that's macroable, another option would be to make a macro and assign them to something like MACRO+SOURCEBUTTONONPREVIEW and have that both put the source on the preview row and fly out the config menu (and maybe auto close it after a few seconds). That could shave off both * steps with a two-handed CS action, one hand of which was already hitting the source on preview anyway. If that command isn't available then never mind.
    • The NewTek 8000 CS itself should be able to trigger presets directly without using the UI preset panel at all. Are you using that because it is easier to visualize with the thumbnails or because the CS is more cumbersome or slower than the mouse method? On Standard Edition software, you can hit delegate the Joystick to PTZ, and with some more button pushes, delegate a camera and then fire a preset. But that had a lot of two-handed pushes to accomplish. Looking at the manual for AE3, this seems to have been reduced. If you don't need the thumbnails and could operate it like your external controller, it looks like you could enable follow preview with the old LiveSet section, button 2. Then your workflow would be preview the camera, press and hold PST CALL (LiveSet button 4), press the preset number you want in the M/E key row, then take. You'd never have to use the keyboard or the mouse. If you really want to see the thumbnails, this doesn't help.
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    Kris
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  2. #17
    From Browser To Broadcast jmmultex's Avatar
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    Just a quick thought on this...

    If it is possible to sense when a button on the CS is being double tapped, I could see using that to trigger a PTZ selection mode.

    In use, you would double-tap the preview key of the camera you'd want to pick a preset for. This would put it in a 'preset selection mode' where you could then use the 1-9 keys in the preview row to select the PTZ Preset you want (maybe flash the CS lights for those buttons to make the mode obvious). When in this mode, the preset thumbnails could appear as a 3x3 grid in the preview window (on the main UI monitor only) for visual reference and revert back to the live camera once a selection is made. This requires minimal hand movement to execute a selection, and doesn't require additional screen real-estate visually.

    Hitting any Program Row button, Take, Auto, or T-bar will execute normally with the current PTZ setting and exit the PTZ Preset mode - never having a situation where a switch can't be immediately made while live. The mode could also be cleared when another key - say the 10 key on the Preview row - is pressed. (It could also time out if no action is taken.)

    I have no clue how practical this may be for NewTek to implement or for others to use - it was just a potential approach I've been thinking about. I'm not a big fan of modals in a UI, but I'm not a purist about it if it makes something easier without blocking the workflow or adding complexity. I'm throwing it out here to see if it sparks any other ideas.

    Best,
    John
    John Mahoney
    GNURAL NET, Inc.
    Trenton, NJ 08691

    [email protected]
    http://www.gnuralnet.com

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  3. #18
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    Thanks for giving this consideration.
    Last edited by dhodlick; 02-14-2019 at 09:12 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    EDIT: BTW, I hope it's clear I'm not trying to push back against your point; I'm just trying to make sure I've got the details clear and see if there is any low hanging fruit that would improve matters for you.
    To be clear, I had a detailed dissection of your reply and ended up deleting it. Apparently this is just a concern of mine and only something that I see as a problem. As such, the RP50 will permanently be put back into service instead of using the TC to operate my PTZ cams. Steve, I would encourage NewTek to do exactly what I did and record someone executing the keystrokes to see where the issue is. Better yet, shadow an op that is trying to use the AE3 workflow in a live, fast, PTZ only environment. Or don't.

    I've TD'd on switchers that cost more than my house for live sporting events that you yourself might have watched. This isn't a 'me' problem.

    The only reason I brought this issue up was to notify NewTek of a problem in the workflow introduced in AE3. Obviously, this is 'as designed' and not a concern - so it's no longer a concern of mine either since I am fortunate enough to have a workaround. Tilting at windmills is a young man's game.

  5. #20
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    Tilting at windmills is a young man's game.
    Sometimes tilting a windmill just requires patience, as the process can involve incremental steps. I truly appreciate the feedback in this thread.

    No-one is suggesting this is a "you" problem. I knew as soon as the change was proposed that it would be somewhat contentious. You're putting more emphasis on my "for you" than I did. If it helps re-frame that nuance, replace that with 'trying to see if there is any low hanging fruit that would improve matters for all of our users'.

    p.s., I bet I'm older than you are.
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  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    [*]More of a question for Steve - is the command to open or close the Input Config macroable? The only command reference I have is from 2014 and I don't see it in there. I tried to record it on a SE 410 that I have handy here, but it didn't pick up opening the window itself. If that's macroable, another option would be to make a macro and assign them to something like MACRO+SOURCEBUTTONONPREVIEW and have that both put the source on the preview row and fly out the config menu (and maybe auto close it after a few seconds). That could shave off both * steps with a two-handed CS action, one hand of which was already hitting the source on preview anyway. If that command isn't available then never mind.
    Kris
    Yes, there is a macro command to perform this. 'show_preview_config'

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    Last edited by kanep; 02-15-2019 at 08:27 AM.
    Kane Peterson
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    NewTek, Inc.

  7. #22
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kanep View Post
    Yes, there is a macro command to perform this. 'show_preview_config'Attachment 144151
    Just to mention it, one of the impending changes to TriCaster's native webpage system is a page that lists all (or at least almost all) shortcuts, grouped by module.
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  8. #23
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    If you really want to see the thumbnails, this doesn't help.
    I do think that this is the issue for some - that is, the confidence and related benefits of having the preset thumbnails available with an absolute minimum of fuss. Despite the fact that we got along for years without them, the icons are nice to have, and TriCaster users have become accustomed to them. Thanks for your detailed examination, though, Kris - good to hear from you.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post

    Obviously, this is 'as designed' and not a concern
    Just because that is how it is designed now doesn't mean it has to stay that way and isn't a concern. You aren't the only one I've seen on here bringing up the PTZ change issue. I've found NewTek responsive to solid, reasonable, informed feedback. As Steve mentioned, it does take some time though. And sometimes persistence... Since you said you are willing to stay on AE3 for the other features, I'm just curious if you saw these potential workflows that might give you a better experience with AE3 in the meantime - if you want to give them a try in addition to your standalone hardware controller that you've brought back into your workflow. It doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement or that I'm dismissing your concern as a non-issue, just some options for the short term.

    - Kane confirmed that the config window is macro accessible. That opens up some possibilities to keep your hands off the keyboard using the macro button on the CS. You could assign that flyout to a macro on the CS. Or combine your preview source selection into the macro at the same time. It's still probably a two-handed maneuver, but at least your hands are already nearby and don't leave the CS. If your left hand is on the preview row and your right hand in the main transition area, there wouldn't be a big move for either hand until you reached for the mouse like you were doing before. It might still be too slow and isn't as fast as the follow preview, but at least you don't need the keyboard. I think it is worth a try.

    - From my last post - I'm just curious how well you think this 8000CS setup works in comparison to your traditional hardware controller? I'm not sure if it is viable or not, but I'm interested in what you think of this implementation. If it doesn't work quickly enough, that would also be good feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    The NewTek 8000 CS itself should be able to trigger presets directly without using the UI preset panel at all. Are you using that because it is easier to visualize with the thumbnails or because the CS is more cumbersome or slower than the mouse method? On Standard Edition software, you can hit delegate the Joystick to PTZ, and with some more button pushes, delegate a camera and then fire a preset. But that had a lot of two-handed pushes to accomplish. Looking at the manual for AE3, this seems to have been reduced. If you don't need the thumbnails and could operate it like your external controller, it looks like you could enable follow preview with the old LiveSet section, button 2. Then your workflow would be preview the camera, press and hold PST CALL (LiveSet button 4), press the preset number you want in the M/E key row, then take. You'd never have to use the keyboard or the mouse. If you really want to see the thumbnails, this doesn't help.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	144149
    Thanks,
    Kris
    TriCasters: Mini, 410, 460, 850, 850 Extreme, 855 & 8000
    Replay: 3Play 820
    CG: LiveText3 - With LT[Scoreboards]
    Cameras: Sony NX5
    Macros: YoungMonkey MasterControl, Belkin N52

  10. #25
    From Browser To Broadcast jmmultex's Avatar
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    Hi Kris - The web page that now shows the PTZ thumbnails associated with the selected preview camera could be displayed on a monitor and visible along side the approach you describe. While not perfectly sized or formatted -and not ideal since it sits on another monitor (or iPad) - it could give a 'confidence glance' of the presets if that is something important to an operator.

    I appreciate the approach you are taking here - I know several people that are struggling a bit to adjust their workflows to accommodate this change and yours is a well considered option.

    Thanks,
    John
    John Mahoney
    GNURAL NET, Inc.
    Trenton, NJ 08691

    [email protected]
    http://www.gnuralnet.com

    Gear:
    Gnural Net LiveToAir, TC1, TC1LP, MDS1, TC8000, Cameras: NDIHX-PTZ1, PTZ Optics ZCAM 20x

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmmultex View Post
    Hi Kris - The web page that now shows the PTZ thumbnails associated with the selected preview camera could be displayed on a monitor and visible along side the approach you describe. While not perfectly sized or formatted -and not ideal since it sits on another monitor (or iPad) - it could give a 'confidence glance' of the presets if that is something important to an operator.

    I appreciate the approach you are taking here - I know several people that are struggling a bit to adjust their workflows to accommodate this change and yours is a well considered option.

    Thanks,
    John
    Hey guys, I realize I'm a little late on the subject but I can't help myself. I'll start by saying I'm a live video director for a concert hall that sees a different group, sometimes 2 every weekend. I've been on the TC 860 Standard with CS now for almost 4 years and have seen ALL of the builds in that time. I update as they come out. I'm one who gets excited to see the newer versions and changes that are made good or bad from my standpoint. I am toying with the decision to get AE.
    I personally have seen the PTZ Tab evolve and am disappointed to hear that it is gone in AE3. In my experience with 2 PTZ's being controlled by the TC, I can't imagine a world that the PTZ tab is gone. Having to retrain my Tricaster brain for PTZ is not something I look forward to. My PTZ tab is always open. My content goes on DDR2 or GFX2 only so I can keep my PTZ tab open with Follow on to follow the input being PVWed. That being said, the Presets Windows ARE smaller Steve. I also need to be able to use a preset without having to push PVW in any way.
    Something I noticed in the discussion of time, no one mentioned the time it takes just to LOOK and FIND. I don't have to look or find anything on Standard. Its there. Always there. I don't have to wait for a popup or activate a pop up or watch the presets pop up disappear after a few seconds. Tricaster has been good about taking thinking during your show, live or not, it has slowly made us think a lot more instead of running our show with the ease it has become from Newtek. We should not have to build macros for this Steve.
    OH THE KEYBOARD "sigh"
    Keyboard, how many live Tricaster operators do you honestly know that have a keyboard in use during the show and a CS? I use it for setting up macros but right before the lights go down, my keyboard goes off to the side where I can't accidentally press a button. In fact it has been probably a month or more since I really used the Keyboard for anything. Live Operators use and think differently than those trying to think they know how Live Operators need to use the TC. You know it doesn't really matter, I can't think of a situation where this change helps anyone. Can any of you??? When their is an extra step to anything we are doing in a pressuring situation, or a smaller image to look at, it makes our job a little harder and it is our jobs that become on the line when software we become so used to, changes so drastically like it did in this case, that we didn't pay or ask for, it drastically complicates the the workflow or just flow that we are used to. I welcome change, but not to key components TC got us used to. I for one without getting AE3, know that it will make things more difficult. Do you know how many times I would have to hit the * during one 90 minute show? For someone that does not use the keyboard, more than I should.
    The PTZ webpage, not a bad idea however, you just asked me to take my eyes off the TC UI, and the performer walked out of my PTZ shot. NOW WHAT
    I would much rather the PTZ Tab be in place where I have it right now, or give the option to dock it and lock it. I need my PTZ Tab and I think most would agree.

    Thanks for the thread tis a good one!
    Live Concert Venue IMAG Director
    Tricaster 860 Standard
    2 Sony PTZ's
    2 Sony HD Cameras
    Using NDI for media playback

  12. #27
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    I’m doing my first meeting with AE3 and the main issue I am having is the window gets hidden when I go to switch cameras. I have to go back in and grab the preset window every time. I would greatly love the preset menu returned to its location in the tabs. Another suggestion is to move the audio mixer to the right to allow both tabs to be opened. PTZ control on the left. The mixer on the right.

  13. #28
    Andrew Carlson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don M View Post
    I’m doing my first meeting with AE3 and the main issue I am having is the window gets hidden when I go to switch cameras. I have to go back in and grab the preset window every time. I would greatly love the preset menu returned to its location in the tabs. Another suggestion is to move the audio mixer to the right to allow both tabs to be opened. PTZ control on the left. The mixer on the right.
    I never understood why the audio mixer took up so much space. (covered up all the other tabs when selected.) I like this idea of docking the audio mixer on the right with the DDR2, etc. and putting the PTZ tab on the left with the DDR1, etc. Why would that be so hard?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by pchvideo View Post
    Something I noticed in the discussion of time, no one mentioned the time it takes just to LOOK and FIND. I don't have to look or find anything on Standard. Its there. Always there. I don't have to wait for a popup or activate a pop up or watch the presets pop up disappear after a few seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by pchvideo View Post
    OH THE KEYBOARD "sigh" . How many live Tricaster operators do you honestly know that have a keyboard in use during the show and a CS? I use it for setting up macros but right before the lights go down, my keyboard goes off to the side where I can't accidentally press a button.
    Quote Originally Posted by pchvideo View Post
    You know it doesn't really matter, I can't think of a situation where this change helps anyone. Can any of you??? When their is an extra step to anything we are doing in a pressuring situation, or a smaller image to look at, it makes our job a little harder and it is our jobs that become on the line when software we become so used to, changes so drastically like it did in this case, that we didn't pay or ask for, it drastically complicates the the workflow or just flow that we are used to.!
    Finally. I don't feel so alone out here on this crumbling point I'm trying to protect.


  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post

    - From my last post - I'm just curious how well you think this 8000CS setup works in comparison to your traditional hardware controller? I'm not sure if it is viable or not, but I'm interested in what you think of this implementation. If it doesn't work quickly enough, that would also be good feedback.
    Hi Kris - thanks for your thoughts. I already use the LiveSet keys to handle the COMPS/E-mems for my M/E configs, which change a lot in each show depending on what I am doing.

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