Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 38

Thread: AE3 and PTZ operation - discussion about 'why'???!?!

  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    242

    AE3 and PTZ operation - discussion about 'why'???!?!

    Watched Kane's video about the features of AE3 and instead of clunking up his thread, I thought I'd start a new one so it doesn't get lost.

    For those that have not watched the video - AE3 does away with the PTZ tab with the grid of presets. Now those presets and the PTZ control for each cam are nested inside the multiview window for each PTZ. In switching a live show, you'd preset the cam, hit ' * ' which opens the cam's preset/ptz window, select the shot and take to air.

    Quote Originally Posted by kanep View Post
    The '*' key on the keypad would be the new method for this. Put the PTZ camera in preview, the press this key and it will open the PTZ controls from that camera.
    Wow. That's...um.... an interesting decision. When cutting cams in a live, multi-cam environment, speed and accuracy are everything.

    Now there's an additional step added that requires the use of the keyboard, and it all takes place in a much smaller display. The option is to use a desktop or a laptop to log-in to the TC, where presets can be made and selected remotely.

    All someone from NewTek needs to do is direct a show with a bunch of talking heads bouncing around, or something with fast, unpredictable action, to see how this decision is wildly out of line with the demands being placed on the TD using a Tricaster to control the cams. Using this new workflow would dramatically increase the time between takes as well as the margin of error on those takes. In live TV - missing a shot is harmful to one's career.

    Outside of the native TC PTZ controls, adding yet another device to my already crowded console (the laptop or PC monitor/mouse) is not an option. Nor is taking my eyes away from the TC so I can click whatever shot I need. Things happen very quick - my eyes, or my TD's eyes - need to be on the show instead of on a laptop. "Keep your eyes on the road", you know?

    I would encourage NewTek to re-evaluate this decision because it's the exact opposite of what a TD / director wants to deal with.
    Last edited by dhodlick; 02-12-2019 at 04:24 AM. Reason: expanded a bit...

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Racine
    Posts
    1,619
    Maybe look through this TC1 thread from a few months back when the new PTZ "features" came out, same thing - https://forums.newtek.com/showthread...ccess-Released
    Jeff Pulera
    Streaming Broadcast Solutions - Newtek Elite

    TriCasters: Mini with AE, TC1
    Camera: Sony PMW-X70 4K
    Controllers: All variety of XKeys
    PTZ: Newtek NDIHX-PTZ1

  3. #3
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The stars at night are big and bright
    Posts
    19,353
    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    Now there's an additional step added that requires the use of the keyboard, and it all takes place in a much smaller display. The option is to use a desktop or a laptop to log-in to the TC, where presets can be made and selected remotely.
    Appreciate the feedback on this. The display isn't actually "much smaller", but that's a side point. Ease of access is a concern.

    Now, presumably you're not - or at least not often changing presets live on Program, but more commonly on Preview ... which is why the * shortcut opens the Preview source control window. Something we tossed around but did not implement was an optional setting to automatically open the control window briefly whenever you make a new Preview row selection, closing it again if you didn't select a preset within a short period of time. I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, since it's the use of the keyboard that seems to be a problem for you.
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    242
    Thanks for the reply, Steve. I always appreciate the agility and responsiveness of NewTek whenever anything pops up.

    No, I don't ever change presets live. (Well, I try not to unless I get into a corner....)

    Its not the use of the keyboard that stops me from going to AE3. Its the additional step itself. I don't care if it was hitting "alt" on the control surface to open the PTZ window.... Anything that requires another step to get to my desired result is adding time and deducting mental resources from the show. I want to be able to access the presets and punch them up as fast as possible. The way it was, you would preset the cam, the PTZ tab follows automatically, click your angle, take to air. Now you have to preset your cam, hit ' * ', select your shot, and take to air. Its another step between me and what I want.

    Also, perhaps its a matter of perception - but the preset pop-up chicklet is definitely smaller than the preset tab chicklet. I'm getting up there in years and I appreciate having things larger. Again - during a live show, the harder I have to work to get to something, the less I like it.

    Maybe its one of those things I'll have to just dive-in and try out to see what the effect is on our programs. From the fence, it appears to be a stumbling block on a machine that otherwise tries to make my job easier.

  5. #5
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The stars at night are big and bright
    Posts
    19,353
    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    Its not the use of the keyboard that stops me from going to AE3. [I][U]Its the additional step itself.
    So the proposal eliminates that extra step - but you didn't comment on it. Could you?
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

  6. #6
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    1,523
    How about a double-press a source of preview or program (or any source row) to fly open the config window? I'm not sure if that is a behavior that can be supported with the CS hardware, but it is a very common thing in GV switchers. They call it DPOP. Basically, double-pressing a key on the CS triggers the appropriate menu to show up on their menu panels.

    I could think of some other places that might be handy too... macro windows, transition selections, that sort of thing.

    Kris
    TriCasters: Mini, 410, 460, 850, 850 Extreme, 855 & 8000
    Replay: 3Play 820
    CG: LiveText3 - With LT[Scoreboards]
    Cameras: Sony NX5
    Macros: YoungMonkey MasterControl, Belkin N52

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    242
    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    How about a double-press a source of preview or program (or any source row) to fly open the config window? Basically, double-pressing a key on the CS triggers the appropriate menu to show up on their menu panels.

    I could think of some other places that might be handy too... macro windows, transition selections, that sort of thing.

    Kris
    Having spent loads of time behind a Kayenne - dpops work wonders. That would be killer. Not specifically here - but overall.

    Steve - Automatically opening a window for a moment when presetting....EDIT: Upon thinking about it, that may work. I dunno. First blush says that while it addresses the immediacy of the menu popping up - its still more real estate to cover with the mouse. In AE2, everything "mousable" is within the same sandbox. DDR's, gpx, etc. 99% of the time my mouse is already in the neighborhood for PTZ ops because we have so many fonts in the DDR1 (thus my request for a 'list view' of the DDR content - but that's another thing entirely...) so its just a little flick of my wrist to get from whatever DDR clip I've rolled off DDR1 to whatever PTZ preset I need.

    Interesting solution that may be worth a test. I'd sign up for a beta tester if you need one...
    Last edited by dhodlick; 02-12-2019 at 12:23 PM.

  8. #8
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The stars at night are big and bright
    Posts
    19,353
    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    How about a double-press a source of preview or program (or any source row) to fly open the config window?
    Adding double-press to a CS button is do-able, though non-trivial. Interesting notion though, Kris. This doesn't improve things for those using the UI, mind you.
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

  9. #9
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The stars at night are big and bright
    Posts
    19,353
    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    (thus my request for a 'list view' of the DDR content - but that's another thing entirely...)
    And one I'd personally love to have, too ... but yes, another thing entirely.
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

  10. #10
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    1,523
    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    Adding double-press to a CS button is do-able, though non-trivial. Interesting notion though, Kris. This doesn't improve things for those using the UI, mind you.
    Yeah. Not so much the UI side, but at least you could skip having to move a hand to the keyboard to hit the asterisk. Your finger would already be presetting the camera so smashing it twice wouldn't be an enormous burden to call for the PTZ window. It'd just be double-punch the source on preview, click the shot, take it to air. As close to the previous version as possible. And you wouldn't have to make the window pop up by default momentarily like you were talking about. No keyboard required.

    One other thought... could you turn a source window in the multi viewer into a PTZ presets panel? Like selecting a input, except instead of an input it could just show your presets for the camera on preview? They might be small depending on your UI layout, but you'd be able to make them permanently in one place? Or you could assign a PTZ panel to the multi-viewer window underneath each PTZ so you could have a preset panel underneath each of your PTZ cameras for easy clicking on any camera at any time.

    Kris
    TriCasters: Mini, 410, 460, 850, 850 Extreme, 855 & 8000
    Replay: 3Play 820
    CG: LiveText3 - With LT[Scoreboards]
    Cameras: Sony NX5
    Macros: YoungMonkey MasterControl, Belkin N52

  11. #11
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The stars at night are big and bright
    Posts
    19,353
    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    It'd just be double-punch the source on preview, click the shot, take it to air.
    Interesting notion, thannks. (Actually, we've used this approach in an upcoming build for a special yet to be announced feature).

    Quote Originally Posted by kltv View Post
    One other thought... could you turn a source window in the multi viewer into a PTZ presets panel?
    Actually, we've been considering something similar. No promises, but it's also an interesting notion.
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    242
    Hi Steve - I wanted to close the loop on this.

    Yesterday, I downloaded and installed AE3, and then patched it to the latest version. We had a live show yesterday and during set-up I initially tried to utilize the new PTZ workflow. In short, it was an unmitigated disaster and I pulled our Panasonic PTZ controller out of mothballs to take up the slack.

    I was wrong in thinking its simply adding a ' * ' to the PTZ process - which was nice to see has already been implemented in the current release. I mean, technically - that IS all that happened, but in actual use - it has a drastic effect on workflow.

    Just to be sure - this morning I timed it by recording my keystrokes and time in the macro builder. Since I have installed AE3, I imagined that the DDR1 tab was the PTZ tab in AE2. I did multiple tests - these are the absolute fastest times I was able to see. In the real world, they'd probably be longer because normally you have to spend X-time deciding which preset you want. For this test it was just click-mash

    Process was as follows:
    preset cam/select preset/select take
    AE2 shot change: 57 frames or 1.27 seconds

    Process was as follows:
    preset cam / * / select preset / * / select take
    AE3 shot change: 148 frames or 4.28 seconds

    Using the PTZ interface in AE3 nearly triples the time required to change shots. That, my friend, is completely unacceptable.

    I will continue to use (and LOVE) the other new changes and enhancements to the Tricaster via AE3, but now my RP50 PTZ controller will occupy the real estate on my console that it vacated long ago.

    I sincerely hope NewTek revisits this interface change. It's a huge black mark on an otherwise sterling system
    Last edited by dhodlick; 02-14-2019 at 07:32 AM.

  13. #13
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The stars at night are big and bright
    Posts
    19,353
    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    preset cam / * / select preset / * / select take
    Reflecting on this, the difference between your original workflow and your new workflow comes down to pressing * once to open the preset pane, and then pressing it again to close it, right? Well, let's see. A single press probably takes a second, roughly (arguably about the same as it would take to switch to the PTZ tab if you had a DDR in view, which is not considered in your test). It occurs to me that closing the pane automatically on triggering a preset would eliminate the second * operation, halving the added time. Hmmm ...

    Do you use a NewTek CS in your workflow? I'm guessing not. I wonder what you thought of Kris' double-punch suggestion?
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

  14. #14
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    242
    Quote Originally Posted by SBowie View Post
    Reflecting on this, the difference between your original workflow and your new workflow comes down to pressing * once to open the preset pane, and then pressing it again to close it, right? Well, let's see. A single press probably takes a second, roughly (arguably about the same as it would take to switch to the PTZ tab if you had a DDR in view, which is not considered in your test). It occurs to me that closing the pane automatically on triggering a preset would eliminate the second * operation, halving the added time. Hmmm ...

    Do you use a NewTek CS in your workflow? I'm guessing not. I wonder what you thought of Kris' double-punch suggestion?
    Steve - everything was done with our TriCaster 8000 set-up, complete with CS. And the switch to PTZ tab was instant in AE2 because I had autofollow enabled. You are not taking into consideration the time it takes to move your hand to the keyboard to press *, move your hand from the keyboard to the mouse, make the selection, move your hand back to the keyboard, hit * , move your hand to the cs and hit 'take'. That hand and arm movement is where the majority of time is spent. The actual button-pushing is not of any real consequence...

    I am happy to send you the macro - exactly as I recorded it for both the "PTZ tab" workflow and the "AE3 workflow" The data doesn't lie. You could also easily replicate this on your own system and I'd wager you'd see the same impact to time.

    Edit: The dpop suggestion might work, but the layout and positioning of the PTZ window needs to be able to be "locked" to a portion of the screen in order for it to be of any real use. Right now, if you move the window to where it suits the op, it discards that positioning upon close. (Having it pop up dead-center of the entire display is not good...) And the positioning should also include the ability to resize the window and resize the preset chicklets. Lock the PTZ window to the screen in whatever size/shape the op wants and have it autofollow the preset bus for PTZ cams.

    Or just bring back the PTZ tab with autofollow.
    Last edited by dhodlick; 02-14-2019 at 10:06 AM.

  15. #15
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    The stars at night are big and bright
    Posts
    19,353
    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    You are not taking into consideration the time it takes to . That hand and arm movement is where the majority of time is spent. The actual button-pushing is not of any real consequence...
    Let's break this down:

    1. move your hand to the keyboard to press *
    2. move your hand from the keyboard to the mouse
    3. make the selection, move your hand back to the keyboard
    4. hit * (presumably to close the preset dialog)
    5. move your hand to the cs and hit 'take'

    Step 1 is new.
    Step 2 is unchanged
    Step 3a (preset selection) is basically unchanged
    Step 3b (move back to the kb) and 4 (press *) are new.
    Step 5 is unchanged.

    If you eliminate the things you had to do before, you're left with items 1, 3b and 4. I suggested we consider eliminating the last two (3b and 4) by closing automatically on 3a. That would more than halve the extra effort and time as you've broken it down, really leaving you with step 1 as the only really new thing ... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    Right now, if you move the window to where it suits the op, it discards that positioning upon close.
    I would consider that a bug. Each of input dialog is supposed to retain its last position. Put it somewhere you like it, and it should stay there. If it doesn't, please 'bug' it.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhodlick View Post
    And the positioning should also include the ability to resize the window and resize the preset chicklets.
    I can pretty much guarantee this won't happen, sorry. In fairness, you couldn't do it in the old implementation either.

    EDIT: BTW, I hope it's clear I'm not trying to push back against your point; I'm just trying to make sure I've got the details clear and see if there is any low hanging fruit that would improve matters for you.
    --
    Regards, Steve
    Forum Moderator
    ("You've got to ask yourself one question ... 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, spammer?")

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •