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Thread: Allegorithmic joins forces with Adobe....

  1. #31
    Lava Lamp Technician 3D Kiwi's Avatar
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    C4D will be next, If they are serious about getting into the 3D market its the obvious choice.

  2. #32
    Lava Lamp Technician 3D Kiwi's Avatar
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    Double post

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3D Kiwi View Post
    C4D will be next, If they are serious about getting into the 3D market its the obvious choice.
    Oh boy ! Do you think that will happen ? Is there stomach at Maxon for that ? I hope not.

    Steve/Chuck I realise this is veering off the great release of LW2019 (upgraded btw ), but it is interesting to picture where the 3D landscape might be a year from now. Who would have thought that when the mist finally clears, within a certain perspective only Lightwave and Blender might be left standing ? Contrasted with the "silence" which ended just over a year ago, this really is remarkable.


  4. #34
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    One more interesting new contender. His patrons have increased substantially since the Allegorithmic news!

    https://armorpaint.org

    Node-based material PBR painting. Open roadmap with a new version around the corner. The developer is working on painting with particles. He is know to deliver what he promises (Armory3D game engine for Blender).

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  5. #35
    I think people are overreacting to this news. People are banking on technologies that don't even exist yet, lol.
    Someone screen shot this, I'm willing to bet it won't be as bad as everyone thinks as far as licensing and by the time these programs of the future come out, Substance will be that much further ahead.

  6. #36
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    I think people are overreacting to this news. People are banking on technologies that don't even exist yet, lol.
    Someone screen shot this, I'm willing to bet it won't be as bad as everyone thinks as far as licensing and by the time these programs of the future come out, Substance will be that much further ahead.
    Possibly. The future will tell. People banked on Muse, on Edge Animate, GoLive, Dreamweaver, Freehand, Director, Fireworks, Authorware, Digital Suite, and so on, and so forth. Walking down Adobe's path through its existence you will pass many corpses and hollowed out starved left-behinds.

    Adobe has tried to break into 3d a number of times, and failed so far. Adobe management doesn't seem to understand either 3d nor development mindsets.

    As for the emotional (over)reactions: understandable. Most people emotionally attach themselves to things they invest their time and energy in. What is worse, Adobe, or what the company represents, is anathema to many who chose to support Allegorithmic instead. In the mind of most of their users, Allegorithmic stood for something new, a change from the old corporate behemoths, a rebel, an underdog who made it out on top thanks to support of its users. A community, if you like.

    As it turns out, the deep-seated feeling of dislike, even hatred, against Adobe, is shared across most of its members. Even users who are capable to distance themselves from their negative emotions, still feel this is a bad move based on Adobe's history. Expecting a different outcome this time is doubtful. Too many corpses, too many users disillusioned by Adobe in that community.

    If anything, even when you and I feel that rationally they may be overreacting to this news, we should never ever underestimate these type of communal negative outbursts and potential consequences. Look at what happened (is happening) in Brazil, in France, what happened with Brexit, with the American elections.

    No matter whether you or I or anyone thinks that these users are overreacting - the reaction is REAL. With possibly very real (negative) real-world consequences for Allegorithmic.

    Time will tell. Possibly Allegorithmic already lost at least a third of their user base at this point. True love betrayed is an excellent seedbed for eternal hatred and loathing.

    (I would know: I won't touch Autodesk products anymore since my second 'betrayal' related to MotionBuilder.)
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  7. #37
    Yet how is Adobe doing as a company? Or Autodesk for that matter? Check the stock values of each over the last several years, you'll see their value has ballooned since the inception of subscription based software. But how can that be if these companies are losing a third of their customers or people are refusing to use it? Perception of negative blowback from any decision these companies make is fairly one sided, because people who actively use and support these decisions aren't out there on the internet screaming or complaining so everyone gets the idea that its all negative. Personally I would have never been able to afford the Creative suite from Adobe as a perpetual license but I was a subscriber for 4 years as it made it more accessible. Now I just get it for free anyway since my partner is a college proffessor and she gets 2 free licenses. There is a market for these services, people actually request these services. Take Modo for instance which offers both perpetual/maintenance licenses as well as subscription. 75% of their new sales last year were subscription based. That's not an argument for subscription software from me, personally I think having a choice of either is best, but people aren't going to intimidate these companies into changing their practices by saying, we won't rent it.

    As far as Allegorithmic, Seb the owner says he is in charage of 3D essentially at Adobe and says their commitment and respect to customers will remain the same. Wes the trainer at Allegorithmic who is another member of Pixel Fondue with me said they can't really say anything at this point to convince people things will be fine, they just have to show them. Personally I just think its premature to run off half cocked and looking for alternatives before there is any information on this merger. I don't know what the outcome will be but as far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed for me and won't until there's a reason to.

  8. #38
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    I agree with most of what you say. Adobe is doing very well in regards to revenue. But Adobe is far less a software company nowadays then it is a marketing company - their main business has shifted away from that, and the trend is only accelerating. Most of their revenue is no longer from selling software, I believe I read somewhere a while ago.

    You can tell by how Adobe worded their Allegorithmic buyout announcement: they're mainly interested in 3d content asset services. Adobe no longer looks at the world in terms of software, but how they can sell services.

    I teach myself in a digital design program, and most students I talk to mention they dislike Adobe's rental-only approach, but they need it for school, so... Obviously they don't dislike the software, of course. Till last year I had access to Adobe's CC suite for (almost) free ($10 a year), but that ended. I now only rent InDesign on a per month basis for one term in the year when I need access. I don't like it at all.

    The other Adobe applications I haven't used for work or hobby for years now, and I completely migrated away from Adobe. I did use InDesign, but that has ended now as well. I just do not like to rent software. Simple as that.

    As for losing customers: I think we need to differentiate between the smaller niche expert users, and the large swatches of non-specialist "consumers" type of users. A niche group of users like Allegorithmic 3d content asset building users aren't going to set the world on fire for Adobe when it loses that group of users - not if Adobe is able to convince a hundred time more users to rent CC if Substance Designer and Painter become part of their ecosystem of software. That abysmal video they posted is a good example of how Adobe already is misrepresenting the software, in my opinion.

    I have read all the posts by Seb, Wes, etcetera. It is obvious they had expected a negative response, but even so the surge of negative comments on just about any 3d-related forum has taken even them a bit by surprise. At this stage talk is cheap. The feeling of betrayal runs deep within the community right now, and they're (the Allegorithmic people) damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

    I have no investment whatsoever in Substance software, although I was planning to invest time in getting to learn Painter. That is no longer on the table, not because of emotional feelings, but quite simply rational reasoning and experience with Adobe. I have been burnt by Adobe many times in the past, and will not trust Adobe's word on anything at this point. I am quite convinced Seb believes absolutely in his vision and trusts his new Adobe boss, but I myself am very, very skeptic.

    No matter for me, because I have no investment in these applications or Adobe. It will be interesting to see if history repeats once again as it has done many, many times before. Let's return to this topic in a year's time.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3D Kiwi View Post
    C4D will be next, If they are serious about getting into the 3D market its the obvious choice.
    I don't think so. MAXON is a Nementschek company. Nementschek is huge, checkout their (BIM) solutions, it goes far beyond what Adobe does and is more comparable to Bentley.

    C4D would certainly fit perfectly into Adobe since it has already a tight integration in AE and AI and an easy to use UI and workflow. However MAXON is doing great and why would Nementschek sell it then.

    Any software that goes to Adobe or Autodesk I'll immediately stop investing since I don't do rental or online activated software. Same now for Substance, Vue and Vray unfortunately.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrgiger View Post
    Yet how is Adobe doing as a company? Or Autodesk for that matter? Check the stock values of each over the last several years, you'll see their value has ballooned since the inception of subscription based software. But how can that be if these companies are losing a third of their customers or people are refusing to use it?
    I once saw the old Lightwave 405 where two guys filmed a "Hollywood VFX short" on a tiny budget. You seem to imply the modern equivalents - the little guy, the tiny studio, the innovators and doers, should all first check the stockmarket to see how Adobe or Autodesk are doing before creating any art. It is people like those who specifically gravitate away from those models, and who trusted and built Allegorithmic in the first place - something "Mr Peter Jackson moment" seems to have forgotten.

    Incidentally, Modo was also built on those values with Luxology and for all the "options" you have listed, in practice is a draconian license-bug-hell, as so many threads there demonstrate. The one fantastic thing Modo has going for it is the unilateral ecosystem and sheer energy outputted by William Vaughan who seems to have taught himself and mastered document publishing. His recent Modo Essentials PDF & videos is (in my view) the template of how 3D training should be presented, and Lightwave could do with an equaivalent. But some of the Modonauts are disenfranchised and looking elsewhere now.

    Proverbially half of Adobe's customers hate the organistaion and see it as an evil to be reluctantly endured rather than a valued assest. The Youtube comments on Adobe's first promotion video are a hoot. Now the bottom line is that it is entirely up to Allegorithmic how they conduct their own affairs, but the last yearly survey of users strangely omitted to trust their own customers by asking them about the merger beforehand, and has resulted in people now seeking alternative solutions - surely you can't blame them for that.

    Last edited by TheLexx; 01-26-2019 at 05:47 PM.

  11. #41
    Lava Lamp Technician 3D Kiwi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marander View Post
    I don't think so. MAXON is a Nementschek company. Nementschek is huge, checkout their (BIM) solutions, it goes far beyond what Adobe does and is more comparable to Bentley.

    C4D would certainly fit perfectly into Adobe since it has already a tight integration in AE and AI and an easy to use UI and workflow. However MAXON is doing great and why would Nementschek sell it then.

    Any software that goes to Adobe or Autodesk I'll immediately stop investing since I don't do rental or online activated software. Same now for Substance, Vue and Vray unfortunately.
    Nementschek being a large company makes it worse, C4D (Maxon) is just dollars and cents to them, it only just changed hands a year or so ago. Once it becomes more profitable to sell C4D and invest in something else they wont hesitate.

    Then they will go for RedShift

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by TheLexx View Post
    Incidentally, Modo was also built on those values with Luxology and for all the "options" you have listed, in practice is a draconian license-bug-hell, as so many threads there demonstrate.
    Again, just like the complaints about Autodesk and this new Adobe merger, internet outcry is mistaken for reality. The fact is, most people haven't had an issue with the licensing system, and most things when they have happened have been resolved by contacting support. What doesn't get resolved right away is when people go to the forum and complain that Luxology wouldn't have ever allowed this system to be put in place or they cry about Brad Peebler leaving or whatever nostalgic moment they can't seem to get over. Just like in LW, complaining about a bug or other longstanding issue in LW isn't handled by you going to the forum and b|tching about it, its handled through bug reporting and follow up. The fact is, and what doesn't get said a lot is there are more developers working on Modo than there ever were during the Luxology days, the software is updated (and consequently bug fixed) more often and we are paying less for a annual upgrade on maintenance. Foundry has owned up to the problems with the licensing system, it was only put in place in version 11 and they are still working out the problems that do arise. Whether it was necessary to go to this new system I have no idea, I'm really indifferent, I've not had issue with it and actually like login based licensing like I Have with marmoset, Zbrush and Marvelous Designer.

  13. #43
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    Fair enough hrgiger, just observing, I won't labour it.
    3D Kiwi - 4D and Redshift both swallowed up by the behemoth ? Gulp, very scary indeed.

    Then the ultimate showdown - Adobe vs Newtek (!). Nostradamus missed this one for sure.

    Will there be any growth bonus for Lightwave as a result of this ? If Newtek put aside Modeler a little longer and threw everything into gaining an internal or add-on GPU renderer, could LW be seen as a credible texturing app, given the FBX workflow improvements ?
    Last edited by TheLexx; 01-26-2019 at 06:15 PM.

  14. #44
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    I really don't like adobe software. It's all bloated and convoluted. I won't pay for it personally. I guess it's just familiarity that keeps it in the high risers.
    Last edited by jasonwestmas; 01-26-2019 at 06:32 PM.
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  15. #45
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonwestmas View Post
    I really don't like adobe software. It's all bloated and convoluted. I won't pay for it personally.
    It depends on the specific app: InDesign is good and effective, for the most part. Photoshop, however? So many legacy issues and bugs which are caused by the software's long history of building on top of an aging code base. To mention but a few problems:

    - the 15bit "16bpc" image mode
    - gradients not working at limited bit depths
    - the ridiculously outdated and slow raytracer for 3d rendering
    - the convoluted and outdated 3d painting and non-existing uv tools
    - the awkward outdated animation features.
    - limited 1bit bitmap and index colour modes
    - inconsistent GUI design
    - sub-standard retina/4K screens support

    ...and too many other things, stupid behaviours, limitations, and bugs. Its layer stack isn't aging well at all, for example.

    Anyway, it just needs a complete rewrite from the ground up. But they can't or won't.
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