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Thread: New and better tutorials on hair in FiberFX wanted!

  1. #1
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    New and better tutorials on hair in FiberFX wanted!

    Since most of the videotutorials that are showing hair, fibers etc in FiberFX are really old and some of them even says no when trying to follow them in the new version LW 2018 I guess it would be necessary for oldies like me to get some help either with links to how to make realistic hair in LW 2018 or if someone with more skills could assist with some help. I have gone through what I found in whitepapers but just don't get it.

    Earlier I asked if Newtek couldn't just add a basic gallery of presets to start from that are able to be applied to different shapes but most of the old wavers doesn't seem to like when things are done the smooth way. So that request wasn't a popular wish. Heard that before huh?

    Well anyway I tried to spend some time understanding how to avoid the new and extremely slow pre-render system in LW 2018 to see just the basics of how the hair changes with different settings. I guess it will take a lifetime to understand if you haven't got special skills.

    I experienced that the old texture settings make things faster in the pre render process and saved down two scenes as an example of how one can create an ugly rug instead of hair when knowledge of how to do it are below zero

    Can someone take a look and give me a hint of how to add some life and reality to that wig and please do not common the basic egghead, it's just there to keep the hair on an object.

    What I wan't to do when it looks better is a test to see if FiberFX connection works better with dynamics than when I tried some years ago and FiberFX failed to make things work properly!

    Jack
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  2. #2
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxtone View Post
    I guess it will take a lifetime to understand if you haven't got special skills.

    Jack
    You simply need to require the special skills, it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx, and if you donīt require the special skills, you simply do not spend a lifetime wrestling with something you donīt understand.

    Just a question...your sample scenes, itīs basic hairguides without any special styling..but I am wondering, why do you have fiberfx turned off on those two scenes? itīs just the hairguides that is showing...either you have turned it off, forgotten to activate it..or something is happening when loading the scenes that doesnīt automaticly turn them on.
    The checkmark to turn fiberfx on for rendering is supposedk to be checked under the eye icon in the fiberfx panel.

    hair needs to be thin at the end, which means you should use a gradient in the fiber width, like the fiberV gradient.
    Set a value of 0 at the end of that gradient, and a very very small value at the beginnig like 0,01......hair is very thin, especially mine (almost vellus hair at the landing bay for the flies)

  3. #3
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I also think you may be using lights in a way that doesnīt yield realistic results, all spot lights, area light, distant light, and environment light may be better..if itīs outside avoid GI if possible and use the environment light with either area light ..Or the distant light.

    Personally I do think fiberfx takes too long to render, no matter if you use GI or not, the old fiberfx rendered in some cases faster and with a more smooth look, but it could also be tricky to get good shadow depth and good reflection on dark material without all looking too flat.

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    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Hi Promotheus!

    About the FiberFX I havenīt turned the layer with the hair on, just the other four layers that I understood had nothing to do with the hair process. Maybe the FiberFX turns off itself when closing Layout! Please see the attached image.

    You wrote "it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx"!

    I guess if a software suite contains a part of it 2018 that are supposed to be helpful and effective for a user 2018 that craves a couple of months to learn, its about time for the developers to think again. I guess not many have that time for a single part of a software if you gonna produce customer related stuff with deadlines, at least not me who just feels "stoopid" and stop using that part of the software when a backdraw like this occurs.

    Every update PR from the end of the 90's and forward have sounded the same, faster, easier and better. Now I still do not see any good education videos of Fiber FX, long hair and dynamics that have been added since I tried to use it a couple of years ago. Maybe there is an interest behind this "not a very good strategy" from Newtek that their users shall NOT be masters of the different program parts without spending months to learn. Honestly I havenīt experienced too many examples of users that have examples of either tutors or proof of their work when it comes to Fiber FX longhair dynamics connection. And thats sad!

    Now a question to your statement that you also experience the FiberFX as slow. What do you use instead when working with dynamics and longhair?

    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    You simply need to require the special skills, it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx, and if you donīt require the special skills, you simply do not spend a lifetime wrestling with something you donīt understand.

    Just a question...your sample scenes, itīs basic hairguides without any special styling..but I am wondering, why do you have fiberfx turned off on those two scenes? itīs just the hairguides that is showing...either you have turned it off, forgotten to activate it..or something is happening when loading the scenes that doesnīt automaticly turn them on.
    The checkmark to turn fiberfx on for rendering is supposedk to be checked under the eye icon in the fiberfx panel.

    hair needs to be thin at the end, which means you should use a gradient in the fiber width, like the fiberV gradient.
    Set a value of 0 at the end of that gradient, and a very very small value at the beginnig like 0,01......hair is very thin, especially mine (almost vellus hair at the landing bay for the flies)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FiberFX_On.jpg 
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    Curious

  5. #5
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxtone View Post
    Hi Promotheus!

    About the FiberFX I havenīt turned the layer with the hair on, just the other four layers that I understood had nothing to do with the hair process. Maybe the FiberFX turns off itself when closing Layout! Please see the attached image.

    You wrote "it doesnīt take a lifetime, some months with focus dedicated working on fiberfx"!

    I guess if a software suite contains a part of it 2018 that are supposed to be helpful and effective for a user 2018 that craves a couple of months to learn, its about time for the developers to think again. I guess not many have that time for a single part of a software if you gonna produce customer related stuff with deadlines, at least not me who just feels "stoopid" and stop using that part of the software when a backdraw like this occurs.

    Every update PR from the end of the 90's and forward have sounded the same, faster, easier and better. Now I still do not see any good education videos of Fiber FX, long hair and dynamics that have been added since I tried to use it a couple of years ago. Maybe there is an interest behind this "not a very good strategy" from Newtek that their users shall NOT be masters of the different program parts without spending months to learn. Honestly I havenīt experienced too many examples of users that have examples of either tutors or proof of their work when it comes to Fiber FX longhair dynamics connection. And thats sad!

    Now a question to your statement that you also experience the FiberFX as slow. What do you use instead when working with dynamics and longhair?
    I understand you..And I think they still have a lot to do for the new hair system to become really good and fast, I had hoped for better speed and then better tools for styling the hair, in fact one of the many factors that made me not upgrade wat that I wasnīt satisfied with the new hair system, and currently I prefer another Free software that I think does hair better and renders much much faster with GPU rendering, and is easier to style.

    That said..I am not a hair proffesional, I know quite a few things about it, and can also perform dynamics with lightwave.but I am in a process of learning the other software for that.

    Image attached changed all your lights and just used distant light and one environment light, the fibers was changed a bit in length, and also using fiberV gradient in fiber width, I have to low aliasing here I guess..I didnīt upgrade so with the discover edition... I can only render out within VPR for showcasing something without checkers, canīt save out any scenefiles either for you due to that reason.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Nice hints on the Fiber Z gradients! And, as mentioned, a single light with Environment highlights the hair better, although I ended up using a single Spotlight with a 1-meter size to get some softer shadows (not sure how to get those soft shadows in prometheus's posted screen grab with a Distant light). 3-point lighting in cinematography (as it appears the original lighting setup was supposed to be) is intended to simulate environment lighting. With with an appropriate backdrop, especially an HDRI spherical image map of the room / park / street scene where the character is supposed to be should work well instead of 3-point lighting.

    Here's a sample scene using the original scene and attempting to reproduce prometheus's results. A screen shot of the FiberFX panel wasn't included, but I think a Gradient was also used on Gravity to make the hairs stick out from the head and then droop. The kink on the hair was reduced, the lighting changed, and the Gradient on the Fiber Width goes from 7mm down to 2mm - which is large for real-world hair but the head model is 4-meters in diameter! The Head and Hair colors on the head's surface were also changed to a dark reddish-brown so the blue background (environment) doesn't make the skin look sickly.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    RE: speeding up FiberFX setup, for me the actual render is much faster than waiting for VPR to update. It's conceivable that fiber setup might be faster by using the Limited Camera region by pressing small L ("l") while in Current Camera view, drag the corners to a sub-portion of the frame to concentrate on. Make a FiberFX change, then press F9 to render that sub-portion. Dunno - I haven't done much fiber setup.

    Good luck!
    mTp
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    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Promotheus and MonroePoteet!

    Thank you for taking time helping me out here. I bought syflex a couple of years ago and must say that both Newtek and Syflex must have some kind of overrated view of their customers and I guess its the same old "tech" side versus "creative producers" with less interest in coding, scripting or get into the depth of interfaces with more friction than fast solutions for telling a story with 3D and film. I totally hate that kind of stupidity that have been the code for one too many 3D softs and add ons.

    Syflex had a massive amount of video and text tutorials for Softimage that is totally uninteresting and Lightwave have about no valuable video tutorials connected to their "new and better" FiberFX on internet! Are they really only in for the tech guys I guess their time is running out. Its rare to find any youngsters today that are not used to direct interaction when it comes to graphics and 3D apps... so for who are the developers creating their 3D-suites? Old technical geeks that will always stay foot to how it was in the old days?

    What are my mission, what are your mission? To tell stories and even if stories mainly has very little to do with hair its just embarrassing that one has to go through tons of white papers to get some hair that are affected by gravity, wind or other dynamics in 2018.

    I wonder what freeware that can handle hair and dynamics you are into Promotheus?

    I am definitely gonna go through the scenes you have developed for me and wonder about how the head became 4 meters in size... must have something to do with a slice of desperation where I ripped my own hair from my scalp
    Last edited by jaxtone; 05-06-2018 at 07:57 AM.
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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxtone View Post
    Promotheus and MonroePoteet!

    Thank you for taking time helping me out here. I bought syflex a couple of years ago and must say that both Newtek and Syflex must have some kind of overrated view of their customers and I guess its the same old "tech" side versus "creative producers" with less interest in coding, scripting or get into the depth of interfaces with more friction than fast solutions for telling a story with 3D and film. I totally hate that kind of stupidity that have been the code for one too many 3D softs and add ons.

    Syflex had a massive amount of video and text tutorials for Softimage that is totally uninteresting and Lightwave have about no valuable video tutorials connected to their "new and better" FiberFX on internet! Are they really only in for the tech guys I guess their time is running out. Its rare to find any youngsters today that are not used to direct interaction when it comes to graphics and 3D apps... so for who are the developers creating their 3D-suites? Old technical geeks that will always stay foot to how it was in the old days?

    What are my mission, what are your mission? To tell stories and even if stories mainly has very little to do with hair its just embarrassing that one has to go through tons of white papers to get some hair that are affected by gravity, wind or other dynamics in 2018.

    I wonder what freeware that can handle hair and dynamics you are into Promotheus?

    I am definitely gonna go through the scenes you have developed for me and wonder about how the head became 4 meters in size... must have something to do with a slice of desperation where I ripped my own hair from my scalp
    That scene was not my doing, that is Monroepoteet saving it and naming it with a reference to me.

    As for what kind of freeware? not hard to guess, I can give you a direct clear answer in private messages, but a hint would be...what do you use to mix a smoothie?

    I will try and get time to record a process of getting styled hair from that softwave over to lightwave soon, had some issues with recording devices ..nvidia graphics card direct recordings changed with drivers needed to be updated, and the free obs studio I havent learned and used that much, but the drivers and the recordings seem to work now, I just need some more whisky to get the right narrative voice...and set some time apart between spring cleaning and normal work etc...got some work to do on this sunday for my work dealing with the new GDPR laws, a working group at work which I am part of.

    I havenīt put up any vid for 3 months....So I need to get going soon again.

  9. #9
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MonroePoteet View Post
    Nice hints on the Fiber Z gradients! And, as mentioned, a single light with Environment highlights the hair better, although I ended up using a single Spotlight with a 1-meter size to get some softer shadows (not sure how to get those soft shadows in prometheus's posted screen grab with a Distant light). 3-point lighting in cinematography (as it appears the original lighting setup was supposed to be) is intended to simulate environment lighting. With with an appropriate backdrop, especially an HDRI spherical image map of the room / park / street scene where the character is supposed to be should work well instead of 3-point lighting.

    Here's a sample scene using the original scene and attempting to reproduce prometheus's results. A screen shot of the FiberFX panel wasn't included, but I think a Gradient was also used on Gravity to make the hairs stick out from the head and then droop. The kink on the hair was reduced, the lighting changed, and the Gradient on the Fiber Width goes from 7mm down to 2mm - which is large for real-world hair but the head model is 4-meters in diameter! The Head and Hair colors on the head's surface were also changed to a dark reddish-brown so the blue background (environment) doesn't make the skin look sickly.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Prometheus_Mods_Maybe.jpg 
Views:	53 
Size:	258.6 KB 
ID:	141581
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Perhaps_prometheus_Mods_ScreenGrab.jpg 
Views:	50 
Size:	1.52 MB 
ID:	141580

    RE: speeding up FiberFX setup, for me the actual render is much faster than waiting for VPR to update. It's conceivable that fiber setup might be faster by using the Limited Camera region by pressing small L ("l") while in Current Camera view, drag the corners to a sub-portion of the frame to concentrate on. Make a FiberFX change, then press F9 to render that sub-portion. Dunno - I haven't done much fiber setup.

    Good luck!
    mTp
    I think I may have changed the distant lights angle a bit, which means softer shadows, there is no more dome lights in lightwave 2018 ..to acheive those you simply raise the angle to itīs highest value, if you are outside in the real world, when sunlight is obscured by clouds, or tree mist..shadows tend to look a bit softer.
    Unfortunately as I mentioned, I only got the discovery edition..can not go back and check the scene settings.

    I think the LW team needs to investigate and see if they can improve the VPR speed for fiberfx as well as radiosity..I am not satisfied with it...it feels like night and day in speed when I can use GPU in the other software and use itīs preview system.

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    OK, thanks. I can confirm that increasing the angle on the Distant light appears to be the method you used. In the scene I uploaded, just changing the Light type to Distant and increasing the Angle in the Light Properties panel to 10% produces these types of soft shadows. Nice!

    mTp

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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Haventī tried it ..but investing in octane may be the way to go for rendering the new fiberfx system in Lightwave, considering it can use the GPU for rendering, and when comparing "mix smoothie in a ...") software and GPU rendering VS Lightwave 2018 VPR rendering..the Lightwave render is much much slower, so that could be a question of CPU VS GPU Speed, but it may also be a question of the hair system itself in lightwave VS how well it is implemented in my other software.
    I think Lino Grandi states he almost uses Octane nowadays for all his renders ..with lightwave that is.

  12. #12
    Unless you are working for print I wouldn't wast your time with hair/fur in lightwave. I have yet to see any decent looking hair and fur examples out of lightwave that doesn't look it's from the 90's. I can get around most of Lightwaves shortcomings but without any third party support, I don't see any workiable hair solutions on the Horizon. Might want to try Houdini Indi if your serious about trying to get decent fur/ hair??? I miss Worley

  13. #13
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    Sudax20

    Thanks for your advice and when I first looked at the Houdini website at the Indie version I was about to invest and change track. But as I understand the Houdini FX is the only option theyīve got making it possible to create fur and hair... and it is $4,495 USD! But you may correct me if I am wrong here...

    That price is not in my plans at the moment. But you really made me think of why I still use Lightwave for other purposes than squares, cubes and spaceships. What idiot am I that time after time fall into the updates about new and better program parts that actually takes too long and gives too little when talking of a fast accurate customer friendly interface. Allthough I must admit that I have become really fast when it comes to creating cubes...

    When looking at this three year old tutorial and all the rest of Houdini's user friendly inspiring and understandable tutorials I get inspired.

    This show off of a simple way to create instant hair in a 3D software worth its name would spread a shadow of shame over Lightwaveīs non optional tutorials, education material or whatever they DO NOT COME UP WITH.

    The FiberFX that I am stuck with suddenly looks more like a joke in comparison with this.

    P.S. For you guys out there that are pleased with how it works inside Lightwave please do notcriticize me until you have something similar to show up regarding Lightwaves FiberFX and its tutorials! I am not interested in twisting and tweaking with pointless actions or dip my nose in white papers that cannot show or guarantee that the result will be great.

    Man they make it so easy...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7vn6ontCyI

    ... and a moustache to!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBki4l4jLjo
    Last edited by jaxtone; 05-08-2018 at 11:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxtone View Post
    Sudax20

    Thanks for your advice and when I first looked at the Houdini website at the Indie version I was about to invest and change track. But as I understand the Houdini FX is the only option theyīve got making it possible to create fur and hair... and it is $4,495 USD! But you may correct me if I am wrong here...
    No that's not correct, Houdini Indie can do exactly the same as the FX version, except the 4k limitation for animations.

    Maybe you confuse it with Houdini Core.

    About restrictions, this is what is written right there on the Houdini Indie page:

    The annual gross revenue of commercial entities and contracting entities does not exceed $100K USD
    Commercial entities and contracting entities can purchase a maximum of 3 Houdini Indie and 3 Houdini Engine Indie
    Houdini Indie includes a supplementary license for use on a second computer/laptop or to work in dual boot mode
    The use of these two licenses is restricted to a single artist, who can only use Houdini Indie on one of these computers at a time
    Houdini Indie cannot be used in the same pipeline as commercial versions of Houdini
    Houdini Indie uses its own file format for saving scenes and assets
    It is restricted to 4096 x 4096 when rendering out animations
    Houdini Indie works with the following third party renderers: RenderMan, Arnold, Redshift and OctaneRender. V-ray and Maxwell Render will be supported in the future

  15. #15
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaxtone View Post
    Sudax20

    Thanks for your advice and when I first looked at the Houdini website at the Indie version I was about to invest and change track. But as I understand the Houdini FX is the only option theyīve got making it possible to create fur and hair... and it is $4,495 USD! But you may correct me if I am wrong here...

    That price is not in my plans at the moment. But you really made me think of why I still use Lightwave for other purposes than squares, cubes and spaceships. What idiot am I that time after time fall into the updates about new and better program parts that actually takes too long and gives too little when talking of a fast accurate customer friendly interface. Allthough I must admit that I have become really fast when it comes to creating cubes...

    When looking at this three year old tutorial and all the rest of Houdini's user friendly inspiring and understandable tutorials I get inspired.

    This show off of a simple way to create instant hair in a 3D software worth its name would spread a shadow of shame over Lightwaveīs non optional tutorials, education material or whatever they DO NOT COME UP WITH.

    The FiberFX that I am stuck with suddenly looks more like a joke in comparison with this.

    P.S. For you guys out there that are pleased with how it works inside Lightwave please do notcriticize me until you have something similar to show up regarding Lightwaves FiberFX and its tutorials! I am not interested in twisting and tweaking with pointless actions or dip my nose in white papers that cannot show or guarantee that the result will be great.

    Man they make it so easy...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7vn6ontCyI

    ... and a moustache to!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBki4l4jLjo
    I donīt think the rendering is the problem for 2018 lightwave fiberfx when it comes to quality, itīs the speed and how you groom style the guides with any kind of brush.
    Personally I recommend checking some software I have pointed you towards that is free, it is quite easy and similar to style with particle edit brush ..as you would with houdini, in fact houdini may be a bit more complicated compare to the free solution ..And, you can get that hair grooming back to lightwave easier than it seem to be with houdini, if you prefer to use lightwave and render, or use the free softwares native renderer and GPU rendering ..which is soo much faster than itīs own native cpu render, or lightwave cpu render...additionally you bring in these guides after grooming from the Free software ..in to lightwave and use octane for lightwave to render it faster with GPU.

    I am off for 4 days of free time during the holiday, I may be able to record a vid on how to groom in this software and then how to save it out for proper import to lightwave, a few steps to follow exactly so it doesnīt crash fiberfx in lightwave, but otherwise it is quite a smooth process....I have been wanting to record this for a long time to help out, but just havenīt had time.

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