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Thread: NewTek NDI Telestrator Workflow - VMix PC/Surface 4 Pro

  1. #1
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    NewTek NDI Telestrator Workflow - VMix PC/Surface 4 Pro

    I have a VMix PC for streaming, and I try to find a way to use NewTek Telestrator together with the VMix PC from a Surface 4 Pro- but I am a bit lost on the workflow and ask here for guidance (I hope this is the right group to post this).

    I have installed the Telestrator test version on a Surface 4Pro (as I hoped this would be good to use in combination with the Telestrator) - and I have connected the Surface (with VMix desktop capture) through HDMI into an Elgato HD60 PRO capture card - in the "Ruby/VMix PC. I can connect the Surface to the VMix PC and the input from the Elgato is found as a Camera input in VMix - and I can also make an NDI output from VMix, that is found by the Telestrator - but I can not find a way to make any video run in the Telestrator.

    I can make one input with the drawing from the Telestrator, but I can not make the drawing come on top of any video as intended - and I am not at all sure about the basic workflow regarding where Telestrator really should be installed - from where the video should be runned (and how to make this happen).

    I have searched for tutorials and in the forum here, but have not really found so much I could use to solve this, so any guidance would be appreciated...

    Kind regards
    Bent Rune

  2. #2
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    I'm not really acquainted with VMix usage, but the basic TriCaster/Telestrator pipeline goes like this:

    • Choose NDI program output from the Switcher as the background source for the Telestrator app running on another computer (your Surface)
    • Assign the NDI output from the Telestrator to one of the Switcher inputs.
    • Assign that Switcher input as a DSK source.
    • On demand, display the DSK over your program output to overlay the drawing on it.
    --
    Regards, Steve
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    Just to add a few bits to what Steve shared - and I've not actually combined NDI Telestrator with vMix, but this is the general workflow as I have some experience with vMix and Telestrator individually.

    1) No HDMI/video capture card used with NDI. Video moves between PC machines over wired network exclusively using NDI. Do not use WiFi.

    2) Not sure if you would want to use "Program" out of vMix as NDI source for Telestrator as that would create a "loop" - you would then see your own Telestrator graphics coming out of vMix back into Telestrator. I could be wrong, but may want to designate a certain vMix camera source specifically as an NDI output to Telestrator. Maybe a REPLAY source if you have appropriate version of vMix that supports replay?

    3) In Telestrator, you will select any available NDI source as the "background" onto which you will be drawing graphics.

    4) Telestrator does NOT output the actual "video" you are drawing on - rather, the NDI output from Telestrator is ONLY THE GRAPHICS, with alpha channel (transparent) background.

    5) So as Steve said, use the NDI output from Telestrator as an Input to vMix, and assign it as an OVERLAY, which the vMix operator can then switch on or off as they deem appropriate.

    If you are not familiar with using NDI, here is my suggestion. Download the free NDI Tools for PC from Newtek site, and install on both machines. For instance one machine can run NDI Test Patterns to generate an NDI output, and the other PC can run NDI Studio Monitor to see if the NDI signal from other PC can be accessed. This will simplify the verification of the network connection between machines to accommodate NDI. Once you know you can pass NDI between systems, then try to configure vMix and Telestrator to "talk" to one another - knowing the network connection is already good for NDI, if it doesn't work with vMix and Telestrator then it's likely a setting in vMix config that needs adjustment. Make sure network connections on both PCs are set to Work or Private and not Public, which hinders NDI functions.

    You could also use vMix Desktop Capture app for testing, along with NDI Monitor for viewing. NDI Tools available here - https://www.newtek.com/ndi/tools/#download-tools

    Thanks

    Jeff
    Jeff Pulera
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    TriCasters: Mini with AE, TC1
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  4. #4
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPulera View Post
    2) Not sure if you would want to use "Program" out of vMix as NDI source for Telestrator as that would create a "loop" - you would then see your own Telestrator graphics coming out of vMix back into Telestrator. I could be wrong ...
    No, you're right, and of course the same thing would happen on TC ... thanks for the correction.

    You'd want a 'clean' Program output - on TC, this would be "Program (Clean)", assigned to one of the NDI Mix outputs - as the bg to draw over in Telestrator (although you could also use a single Switcher source if you wanted to, or even set the who kit and caboodle up using an M/E and KEY layer instead of the main switcher).
    --
    Regards, Steve
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    Thank you SBowie and JPulera,

    I have connection between VMix and Telestrator now, and the video is running.

    I have discovered the loop as the drawings get doubled up on the Telestrator monitor/the Surface (not the output screen) - so I have to look into your suggestions for this....

    Sometimes there is a red indicator appearing above the drawing area, and sometimes this has been green - what does this indicate?

    Another question is that the video is not filling out the screen on the Telestrator monitor/ the Surface (it is more rectangular and appear a bit compressed horisontal - are there any thoughts on what may could cause this - and perhaps a solution?

    Kind regards
    Bent Rune
    Last edited by BRS; 05-01-2018 at 05:31 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BRS View Post
    Sometimes there is a red indicator appearing above the drawing area, and sometimes this has been green - what does this indicate?

    Another question is that the video is not filling out the screen on the Telestrator monitor/ the Surface (it is more rectangular and appear a bit compressed horisontal - are there any thoughts on what may could cause this - and perhaps a solution?

    Kind regards
    Bent Rune
    The red/green color bar is tally. Red is when the telestrator output is on program and green is preview.

    The video on the telestrator screen should be 16x9, but I think the Surface is more of a 3x2 aspect ratio screen, so I would expect some black areas to keep the correct video aspect ratio.
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    I believe that by default, the only NDI output from vMix is the PROGRAM, which is not what you want for NDI Telestrator source (because of doubling image from video being looped).

    See image above and in vMix Settings, check the box to enable CAMERAS to be output as NDI. You can then select a vMix CAMERA feed in Telestrator to draw over.

    Or as I mentioned in another post, if your vMix supports REPLAY, perhaps REPLAY video can somehow be routed out of vMix as NDI to use as Telestrator source? Perhaps using OUTPUT 2? Just not that familiar with vMix, sorry.

    Thanks

    Jeff
    Jeff Pulera
    Streaming Broadcast Solutions - Newtek Elite

    TriCasters: Mini with AE, TC1
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    Digging further into vMix User Manual and Settings, there might be another method to attempt. I don't know if you are live-streaming your event, or sending output to a display, so be careful with the following option as it MAY affect the final output of vMix. TEST thoroughly. But could possibly resolve the issue of the doubled graphics looped from vMix to Telestrator.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Looks like you can choose to disable overlays on the output, on a per-channel basis, so maybe disable just the overlay from Telestrator? Then that NDI output should work with Telestrator. This would be similar to using "Program Clean" from a TriCaster as Steve had suggested.

    Thanks

    Jeff
    Jeff Pulera
    Streaming Broadcast Solutions - Newtek Elite

    TriCasters: Mini with AE, TC1
    Camera: Sony PMW-X70 4K
    Controllers: All variety of XKeys
    PTZ: Newtek NDIHX-PTZ1

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    Thank you so much for this Kane and Jeff,

    1)
    I have got out of the loop of double drawing on the telestrator screen by sending the video to the telestrator as a different output from VMix (thank you for looking into this).

    2)
    I am about to settle with the idea that I will need a 16:9 touch screen to use the NewTek Telestrator to its fullest potential (I do not seem to find a good workaround with the Surface 4 Pro. I am thinking about two options, - one is to get a different Windows tablet/ laptop with a touch screen. I am looking at a 14" HP Pavilion x360 with a i3 kaby Lake and the rest is according to recommended requirements. I am aware the recommendation was a i5 Sandy Bridge (or better), but it sounds like the new i3 is not so far away from the old Sandy Bridge i5 in tests . The other alternative is an extern 24" Dell 16:9 touchscreen to use as an extension on the Surface 4 Pro - but perhaps it needs to be on a completely different computer - as I perhaps still would be restricted by the 3:2 Surface (I know the old Surface 2 is 16:9, and this could also be an option, but then the specs goes a bit down again, with a smaller screen and windows 8 etc.. Do anyone have any thought on this..?

    3)
    I love how easy it is to draw on top of video with the telestrator as it works very well - and I would be thrilled if it was possible to "move" around with the circles etc. - but perhaps there still is being done further development on the application, and we will get future updates along the way - or is is fully "completed" as is?

    4)
    I suppose we can install a working application on one computer/device at the time - or is it something different (I could not find this information)?

    Kind regards
    Bent Rune

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    Update: I went for a Dell 16:9 touchscreen - and connecting it to the Surface 4 Pro - but the touchscreen picture is still horizontally compressed (does not fill the 16:9 screen out), even if the output screen does fill out nicely (and it alway have done so). Could this be due to restrictions with the surface, so I need to connect the new touch screen to another PC (non-Suface 4 Pro) - or could this issue actually be because I still use a test version of the Telestrator?

    Kind regards
    Bent Rune

  11. #11
    Can you post a picture of what it the screen looks like on your devices? It would help to see what you are seeing.

    What video format you are working in? Also, have you tried any other source into NDI Telestrator? Does something from the NDI Tools (like Test Patterns) show up correctly?
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

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    Sure - here is the color bar (From VMix) - both are screen prints from the Telestrator screen - the one with the narrow picture is from the stream (like when I run a video through the telestrator), and the full screen picture is from the "grab a picture" function in the telestrator. The full screen is also how it looks on the output screen - but it still makes it difficult to draw when the picture in the video is not correct on the telestrator screen, so it should be solved.

    Video format so far has been mp4 (AVCHD could perhaps be relevant if it is possible) - but I also get in some MOV as people send in their videos for assessment and it can be a variety of formats, and I also planned on grabbing from the browser (from dedicated upload platforms for this purpose). Are there any restrictions or recommendations on formats to use together with the Telestrator, and will it be OK to use video from the browser?

    The videos are sport videos with high speed in the movements, and the main topic is to evaluate the details in the movements, so I need to make the right choices on software and hardware - also if I need to use special components above the minimum requirements on the Telestrator device concerning cpu/gpu ets. - so all recommendations are welcome to optimize the final output quality. The VMix/streaming PC with the source videos have very good specs on all components, so there is no bottleneck on the streaming device, and I use ethernet cat6 to the Telestrator device.

    If I try to use the Newtek test pattern from the NDI tools - should this then first be installed on the streaming device or the Telestrator device?

    I suspect the Surface 4 Pro - is insisting on keeping the 3:2 format on the telestrator, even if I use an external 16:9 screen - but then again - it is strange that it shows up correct when grabbing a picture - and also it looks fine in the live 16:9 output screen (only not the telestrator screen for video)??

    I guess the only way is to get a dedicated PC for the Telestrator and I am therefore on the way to discharge the idea of using the Surface 4 Pro at all for the Newtek telestrator, and will therefore look into another PC solution for the telestrator - but I am still curious to understand what causes this, and I am also very curious to know if there is any benefit of then going significantly above the minimum requirement specifications to get the best quality workflow and result for the final video output with telestrator functions (CPU, GPU etc.) - or if the minimum requirements will be plenty good to ensure this - as the video anyway will come from another source than the telestrator device??

    Kind regards
    Bent Rune

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    Last edited by BRS; 05-06-2018 at 11:48 AM.

  13. #13
    But you said that the Dell 16x9 touchscreen and the Surface are both having this same issue? So I doubt it has to do with the Surface 3:2 screen causing the issue.

    NDI Test Patterns can be installed anywhere, on the same PC as NDI Telestrator or another. I'm curious if that works okay. Or trying using the VLC NDI plug-in to play some HD video as NDI and see if that appears correctly could be another test as well.
    Kane Peterson
    Solutions Architect
    NewTek, Inc.

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    Well I have it all on the Surface, and I get up a test pattern on the NDI Monitor (enclosed) - but I can not detect this in the dropdown menu in the Telestrator as an NDI source - should I have seen it there (I am not sure if I understand how to make the NDI monitor appear as an NDI source)?

    (However - I can find the Telestrator with the NDI Monitor)

    Kind regards
    Bent Rune


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  15. #15
    'the write stuff' SBowie's Avatar
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    I think you are a little confused. NDI Monitor (or NDI Studio Monitor) does not output an NDI a/v signal.
    --
    Regards, Steve
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