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Thread: Show me that Lightwave 2018's new render engine is a worthy successor to 2015...

  1. #31
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdolishny View Post
    Please consider reactivating your YouTube video for context. I never saw it.
    I disagree. The video was plain wrong and bad for business. Some bad Newtek press is warranted. Not this time. This is mostly a matter of learning curve.

  2. #32
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    How do you guys feel about the new skin material?
    I think it looks great to some degree, especially the reflections, fresnel ..and may render quite a bit faster than the old skin material, however...
    I miss the multiple scattering, which allowed for quite easy setup and get red ears, nostrils and fingers ..I know too little about the new skin material to reach the same effect with that kind of ease, not sure what in the new material replaced multiple scattering
    or perhaps I just missed to sync the samples in the rendering settings.

  3. #33
    I took a model from a video game and have been working on texturing it in lightwave. The skin is the first thing I managed to do to a degree that I liked it. It's much better then what I was able to do in older ver. A uv texture map in one or more of the sub layers is how I got the coloring to the parts that needed it. Lots of texture maps out there for daz and poser models, smudge out some of the detail and they make a nice sub surface coloring . The patent leather shoes also look great. Most of the rest still really sucks, but working through the suck to what is good is part of learning, right Nodes are very slowly starting to sink in. I never touched nodes before and kind of avoided pbr systems before. I think I might come to like the pbr. Not sure I'll come to really like nodes....

  4. #34
    This kind of topic is just a non-sense : serioulsy, we have to use this kind of software not to render 'spheres in a box' (and/or benchmark seconds less or more) but real elaborated pictures : and the new LW 2018 render engine can archive results, very nicely, which we can't have before...
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  5. #35
    Super Member samurai_x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSherak View Post
    So I used my BSSRDF shader I am working on in 2015 to match the principled BSDF material in 2018. The third image is 2015 with this material. Now you can see that 2015 time is around 2018 with the correct type of materials. There are many things that 2018 will not be able to do that 2015 can with the right shader.

    1) 2018 can't adjust reflections when the glossy reflections button is on. No controls since it's and on/off flag.
    2) Bump maps do nothing but cause errors in 2018 since it's a surface (material) renderer. You have to use Normal maps.
    3) 2018 Fireflies show up due to no control over double specular (reflections) bounce. Look at the chrome sphere in 2018.
    4) 2018 transparent settings in the principled BSDF will not do caustics or shadow tinting correctly. Again since it's a surface renderer. Not a raytracer anymore.
    5) 2018 shaders are not flexable. Have to stick to the rules of real-time and fixed materials. Yes means become familiar with Quixel and Algorithm systems.


    There are many things different between 2015 and 2018 since the underlying renderer is not the same at all. 2015 can do more than 2018 with the same shaders (Materials). There is a little render time increase, less than 10%, but it's 99.99% accurate compared to 50% accurate. Yes principled BSDF works great, but it's made for real-time viewport since it has fixed rules. It's really is not made to replace a true raytracing engine. Main rule in principled BSDF shading system, one has to use normal maps. The bump map channel is now microsurfacing. 2018 bump maps are turned into a normal map at rendering but the CS is off internally, hence why it looks funny.

    Personally it makes me sad to see the 2015 renderer die when it did not need to. Both the 2015 and the 2018 renderer could have been placed in 2018 and the materials could have worked with a unified panel from 2015. They did kill the best raytracing engine on the planet besides radiance. Only thing 2018 has over 2015 is the volumetic system and OpenGL. Course it's implementation for generating source context is lacking heavily for the volumetrics and the lack of substance and quixel inputs for opengl is disappointing. 2018 is going the route of everyone else in the industry and is great to learn if ones workflow is for real-time source generation. 2015 is better for more control and the vast amount of plugins available. But one has to really learn how lighting and surfacing work to get 2015 to render as easy as 2018. Here is a hint. Try plugging in a fresnel node into everything in 2015 and see 2018 show up. Happy Rendering.


    PS. I have both but sticking with 2015 as my renderer. Oh by the way GI generation is the same in both 2018 and 2015. Only difference is Softness setting in 2018 hides the splotches.

    By the way Lighting should really have the Inverse Distance^2 set. But did not want to adjust any of the lighting from the scene. This would be another issue in 2018 moving to LUX.
    Lots of info here.
    So first, is your shader for lw 2015 publicly available?

    Its too bad they did kill the best bang for the buck renderer in lw 2015.
    Maybe its hidden as a cheat code in lw 2018. There was no reason to remove it. Other appz have multiple render engines in them so people that know how to use them can still use them.
    Last edited by samurai_x; 03-29-2018 at 10:11 PM.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris S. (Fez) View Post
    I disagree. The video was plain wrong and bad for business. Some bad Newtek press is warranted. Not this time. This is mostly a matter of learning curve.
    And it showed great courtesy on Paul's part to take it down. Kudos to Paul.
    Tim Parsons

  7. #37
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    I have to be honest and say that comparisons between rendering on 2015 and 2018 are pretty pointless. One maybe slower than the other in a given circumstance, but its not like we can compare like for like because its not. Even trying to set up a scene to do a comparison is hard because you cant use the same scene and have to use work arounds to get the same render.

    Yes its a new renderer and a new learning curve, and indeed yes you can make complaints about this and that in 2018 renderer, however you cant really make a fair comparison between the two and indeed why do you have to. You can run any flavour of LW you like.

    I have still not used 2018 Modeler because to be honest there is not that much difference to me from 2015, well not enough to warrent the risk that allot of my thrid party plugins/scripts not working with 2018.
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  8. #38
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMarchant View Post

    I have still not used 2018 Modeler because to be honest there is not that much difference to me from 2015, well not enough to warrent the risk that allot of my thrid party plugins/scripts not working with 2018.
    for spline bridge I prefer the artsphere plugin instead of the new one natively.
    and in camera modeling I havenīt really used, though I figure it is quite nice to have when that is needed.

    But I like the new Live array tool, that one is nice....though I can do arrays in blender parametricly and change at any time, including making them operate as boolean tools also, parametric and booleans which I canīt performe with lightwave...then again the array tool modifier in blender doesnīt have that many axis to array on as Lightwave has, you would have to add another modifier on dedicated axis for full 3d array...thereīs always something isnīt it.

    Thereīs still too little done with modeling tools in modeler, and layout ofcourse..so it wil not be any upgrade this time until I see where that goes.

  9. #39
    Creative Director jaxtone's Avatar
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    This was a really good question/input! How come Newtek didn't allow multiple render engines/methods?

    Quote Originally Posted by samurai_x View Post
    Lots of info here.
    So first, is your shader for lw 2015 publicly available?

    Its too bad they did kill the best bang for the buck renderer in lw 2015.
    Maybe its hidden as a cheat code in lw 2018. There was no reason to remove it. Other appz have multiple render engines in them so people that know how to use them can still use them.
    Curious

  10. #40
    drat, the video has been pulled

    so did you resolve your issues?
    are you using 2018 or sticking with 2015 render for now?
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  11. #41
    Super Member JohnMarchant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    for spline bridge I prefer the artsphere plugin instead of the new one natively.
    and in camera modeling I havenīt really used, though I figure it is quite nice to have when that is needed.

    But I like the new Live array tool, that one is nice....though I can do arrays in blender parametricly and change at any time, including making them operate as boolean tools also, parametric and booleans which I canīt performe with lightwave...then again the array tool modifier in blender doesnīt have that many axis to array on as Lightwave has, you would have to add another modifier on dedicated axis for full 3d array...thereīs always something isnīt it.

    Thereīs still too little done with modeling tools in modeler, and layout ofcourse..so it wil not be any upgrade this time until I see where that goes.
    Agreed for Modeling i have 2015 Modeler set up how i like it and with all the tools i need working. Not enough reason yet to model in 2018, but hope springs eternal. In camera modeling and texturing ive not used because there is no point for me. If i have to set up a scene and such then i can do that in layout and texture in layout.
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  12. #42
    Eat your peas. Greenlaw's Avatar
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    While there's not a lot of differences between 2015 and 2018's modelers, the biggest reason to use 2018 for modeling is that the surfaces will be compatible with 2018's rendering system. If you go between Layout and Modeler a lot, this feature is criticial.

    (Well, unless you have OD Tools. It has a plugin that lets you keep both 2015 and 2018 compatible surfaces embedded in the object.)

    Being able to use Layout View in 2018 Modeler is pretty nice. I haven't used this feaure in production yet but it should be useful when I need to do camera projection mapping for VFX work.

  13. #43
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlaw View Post
    While there's not a lot of differences between 2015 and 2018's modelers, the biggest reason to use 2018 for modeling is that the surfaces will be compatible with 2018's rendering system. If you go between Layout and Modeler a lot, this feature is criticial.
    Except that previewing surfaces in Modeler 2018 doesn't work. For any surface attributes that aren't visible via OpenGL, you're now "surfacing blind" in Modeler (2018). That's a pretty serious limitation, IMO.

    While surfacing in Modeler previously had limitations, the surface preview was still very useful for catching/correcting a lot of surface issues. It also allowed users to obtain a reasonable surface preview without requiring maximal OpenGL settings -- thereby allowing use of more performance-optimal OpenGL settings for Modeler viewports.
    Last edited by jwiede; 03-31-2018 at 09:03 PM.
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  14. #44
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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    After all this time. Use your archive of surfaces. Or use the Hub. Not a big deal IMHO.

  15. #45
    Super Member Chris S. (Fez)'s Avatar
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