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Thread: Lightwave 2018 Node Editor - How do I achieve these effects with this beast!?!

  1. #1
    Super Member Paul_Boland's Avatar
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    Question Lightwave 2018 Node Editor - How do I achieve these effects with this beast!?!

    Hi Folks.

    Two months of using Lightwave 2018 and the new Node Editor which is now primarily part of everything in Lightwave still leaves me lost and bewildered . I really do think the implementation of this into being the primary interface for texturing and lighting controls is such a disaster because it's not very easy to use...

    I have three questions which I know the answer to in my sleep for Lightwave 2015, but can't for the life of me figure out at all in Lightwave 2018...

    1. How do I create a mirror reflective surface? Lightwave 2015 you have Refection which you can set to 0% - 100%. Lightwave 2018...???

    2. Just like above, how to do I create a transparent surface? Lightwave 2015 you have Transparency which you can set to 0% - 100%. Lightwave 2018...???

    3. In bump mapping, where is the Bump Amplitude gone? It was under the bump mapping controls in Lightwave 2015. Lightwave 2018...??? I see something called Bump Height but that doesn't seem to create the same effect.

    Seriously, the Node Editor is a nightmare! So many inputs, so many outputs, and all I want to do is apply a texture to a surface or adjust a light property and now, to achieve those goals, I have to spend time battling with the Lightwave 2018 interface trying to wire up some chaotic jigsaw puzzle that makes no sense .
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  2. #2
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    If you really want LW2015 type surfaces, you can change the Material type to Standard, double-click on it and the pre-2018 parameters are available, including the Reflection parameter and Texture buttons for the parameters.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	StandardMaterial_Setup.jpg 
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    For using Textures with the Principled BSDF material, you feed Layer=>Scalar, Color or Bump nodes (which have the Image, Procedural or Gradient type layers) or 2D Textures or 3D Textures into the Material nodal inputs rather than have a Texture (T) button.

    Using the Principled BSDF material, you can double-click on the node to enter numeric values for most of the parameters. For a Mirror surface, set Metallic to 100%. For a transparent surface, set "Transparency" to 100%. Or you can feed a Constanct=>Scalar node set to 1.0 into the Metallic or Transparency inputs. The Bump itself is input to the Surface along with the Material.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I'd recommend creating a Unit Cube or a Sphere with a default Principled BSDF surface, get into the Node Editor, press F8 and use the pull-down to apply a variety of the presets, and then look at the node graph created by the preset and experiment. Personally, I plan to keep LW2015 indefinitely along with LW2018, since I'm not that enthralled with "physics based rendering" or photorealistic results.

    mTp
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by MonroePoteet; 03-18-2018 at 09:36 AM. Reason: Change Material type rather than add node, screen capture

  3. #3
    Goes bump in the night RebelHill's Avatar
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    Well, if you just use standard material...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Boland View Post
    1. How do I create a mirror reflective surface? Lightwave 2015 you have Refection which you can set to 0% - 100%. Lightwave 2018...???
    Its exactly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Boland View Post
    2. Just like above, how to do I create a transparent surface? Lightwave 2015 you have Transparency which you can set to 0% - 100%. Lightwave 2018...???
    Its exactly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Boland View Post
    3. In bump mapping, where is the Bump Amplitude gone? It was under the bump mapping controls in Lightwave 2015. Lightwave 2018...??? I see something called Bump Height but that doesn't seem to create the same effect.
    Its exactly the same.

    LSR Surface and Rendering Tuts.
    RHiggit Rigging and Animation Tools
    RHA Animation Tutorials
    RHR Rigging Tutorials
    RHN Nodal Tutorials
    YT Vids Tuts for all

  4. #4
    Super Member Paul_Boland's Avatar
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    Thanks very much, guys, for the detailed replies. I am aware of the Standard Materials option but Newtek say that that is just there for backwards compatibility and you shouldn't use it for new work with the new engine. So I'm trying to see if the new Lightwave 2018 engine can compare to Lightwave 2015 and so far I'm not impressed or happy on many fronts.

    Here is a simple scene done in 2015:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P01 Lightwave 2015.jpg 
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    It was very quick and easy to assemble and it looks great.

    Here's the same scene in 2018 as initially set up when I couldn't figure out how to apply reflections and transparency:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P02 Lightwave 2018 Initial Scene.jpg 
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    And here is the scene after applying them based on the help above:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P03 Lightwave 2018 Metalic Transparency Applied.jpg 
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    Seriously, the new engine is a nightmare to work with! What was simple and straight forward in 2015 is a very complex and seemingly impossible in 2018!?! As I said, I very much appreciate the help above, thank you! But why is it so hard to recreate simple scenes in the new 2018 engine that are simple to do in the 2015 one??? Can Lightwave 2018 compete with it's predecessor? Any additional help appreciated here in getting 2018 to copy the 2015 image...
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  5. #5
    Goes bump in the night RebelHill's Avatar
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    Standard is there for whatever reasons you want. If you want something to behave more like previous versions did, use that. If you want to work the new way, then you gotta learn the new ways.

    You should start by going through all of these.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...MnKF7-4W84I5Tz
    LSR Surface and Rendering Tuts.
    RHiggit Rigging and Animation Tools
    RHA Animation Tutorials
    RHR Rigging Tutorials
    RHN Nodal Tutorials
    YT Vids Tuts for all

  6. #6
    Super Member Paul_Boland's Avatar
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    I copy & paste this direct from the Lightwave 2018 documentation, page one of surfacing...:

    "Standard is still LightWave's main surface material for imported assets for reasons of compatibility with existing assets. New models are textured with PBSDF as the default surface. Standard is as far away from PBR as possible and its use should be deprecated. Surfaces using Standard will be less predictable and harder to manage than those using modern materials like Principled BSDF."

    This says to me that the standard mode is not fully supported, it's unpredictable in the new render engine, and the fact that it should be deprecated that perhaps in future version of Lightwave it will abandoned completely. So we really should learn the new engine. And I'm all for learning the new engine. But while I appreciate the link you supplied, and I will watch the videos, thank you, it very much seems to me that the new render engine is harder to use and inferior to what Lightwave 2015 and below had. Lightwave 2018 is a downgrade and that's a shame...
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  7. #7
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    The way I interpret the grammar of the sentence you quoted, it doesn't suggest that 2018 lacks support for old materials. The sentence "Surfaces using Standard will be less predictable..." uses the future tense. This (and the rest of the quote) suggests to me that future versions will gradually lose support for the old material system. From what I can tell so far, Standard materials behave as advertised. No offense, but your comment gripes about hypothetical problems that don't exist, and therefore... is it necessary? I've posted stuff like that before and later regretted it. Software developers already have to jump through hoops, so maybe try not to create hypothetical ones to add to their exercise regimen?

  8. #8
    Super Member Kryslin's Avatar
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    And here we just RH's blood pressure down...

    You will need to get familiar with the Render Tab of the render options (control-p, "Render"). Since you have a lot of reflection and refraction, you will need to up your reflection and refraction samples. You may want to increase your light samples as well (Shift L, Light Properties). That will help get rid of those very bright spots littering your image.

    There is no one size fits all render setting.

    Also, unless you really need those bright highlights on the wall, you can reduce glossiness / increase roughness.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2spheres6m38s.jpg 
Views:	210 
Size:	119.6 KB 
ID:	140754

    This is what I got after about 45m of work (7m of it being render time)

    Materials are all principled BSDF. illumination by a single point light and GI.
    Cube in the corner is 50% in roughness, specular, metalness, and subsurface. By no means a realistic material.
    Rear Sphere in 2% roughness, 98% specular and metalness.
    Front Sphere is 2% roughness, 25% specular, 98% transparent, 1.5 IoR, transmittance color of (1,1,1).


    Floor, Ceiling, and walls are all 2% specular, 98% roughness. Walls are the Flake procedural, Floor is Parquet procedural.

    I have 8 AA passes, default filter, adaptive sampling. I have samples each for Reflective, refractive, and Subsurface. No denoiser.

    And yes, I've got a few, pesky hot pixels, which may or may not be fireflies, but I suspect they're caustics from the 2 spheres.
    Last edited by Kryslin; 03-18-2018 at 01:12 PM.
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  9. #9
    there is no sanctuary....
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    I think what they're trying to say is that PBSDF is more predictable by it's nature. Standard still works and is endlessly tweekable, by it's nature. I'll bet you've run in to models textured for different lighting before 2018 that wind up looking terrible together in a new scene. The theory is models textured in BSDF should look pretty good together from the start, no matter what. I'm going back and forth, just relax and use what works for you.
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  10. #10
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    Hi paul

    Going from LW2015 to 2018 could be a frustrating experience and we have to learn things again.
    Here something that were not mentionned on the previous posts and that could help you :
    1/ You could use Dielectric material for pure reflectivity instead of Principled BSDF
    2/ You could use Conductor material for pure transparency instead of Principled BSDF
    3/ don't forget to checked Glossy Reflections in the Shading Model Panel of the surface Editor to see reflections from other objets in the scene
    4/ don't forget to check the parameter in the Render Tab, as say on the previous post

    Hope it could help.

  11. #11
    Super Member Paul_Boland's Avatar
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    Thanks for the continued input here. Leave it with me and let me work on it... Kryslin, great pic, that's what I want to see!! Thanks for the input and the image. I'll be back...
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  12. #12
    Super Member Paul_Boland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryslin View Post
    And here we just RH's blood pressure down...

    You will need to get familiar with the Render Tab of the render options (control-p, "Render"). Since you have a lot of reflection and refraction, you will need to up your reflection and refraction samples. You may want to increase your light samples as well (Shift L, Light Properties). That will help get rid of those very bright spots littering your image.

    There is no one size fits all render setting.

    Also, unless you really need those bright highlights on the wall, you can reduce glossiness / increase roughness.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	2spheres6m38s.jpg 
Views:	210 
Size:	119.6 KB 
ID:	140754

    This is what I got after about 45m of work (7m of it being render time)

    Materials are all principled BSDF. illumination by a single point light and GI.
    Cube in the corner is 50% in roughness, specular, metalness, and subsurface. By no means a realistic material.
    Rear Sphere in 2% roughness, 98% specular and metalness.
    Front Sphere is 2% roughness, 25% specular, 98% transparent, 1.5 IoR, transmittance color of (1,1,1).


    Floor, Ceiling, and walls are all 2% specular, 98% roughness. Walls are the Flake procedural, Floor is Parquet procedural.

    I have 8 AA passes, default filter, adaptive sampling. I have samples each for Reflective, refractive, and Subsurface. No denoiser.

    And yes, I've got a few, pesky hot pixels, which may or may not be fireflies, but I suspect they're caustics from the 2 spheres.
    I copied your inputs as best I can. By putting Roughness on the walls at 100% it cleared off the glossy spots. But my two spheres still aren't right or like yours. What am I missing?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P04 Lightwave 2018 Roughness Full.jpg 
Views:	116 
Size:	655.6 KB 
ID:	140759
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  13. #13
    Super Member Paul_Boland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steday View Post
    Hi paul

    Going from LW2015 to 2018 could be a frustrating experience and we have to learn things again.
    Here something that were not mentionned on the previous posts and that could help you :
    1/ You could use Dielectric material for pure reflectivity instead of Principled BSDF
    2/ You could use Conductor material for pure transparency instead of Principled BSDF
    3/ don't forget to checked Glossy Reflections in the Shading Model Panel of the surface Editor to see reflections from other objets in the scene
    4/ don't forget to check the parameter in the Render Tab, as say on the previous post

    Hope it could help.
    Sorry, this didn't work at all for me. I ended up with two black spheres as per the post above. Thanks for the input though.
    KnightTrek Productions
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  14. #14
    Registered User Schwyhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Boland View Post
    Seriously, the new engine is a nightmare to work with
    I 100% disagree. It's SO much easier to get good renders with v2018. Speed is debatable, but more complex? I don't think so.
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  15. #15
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