Is the LW code really that sensitive?

[Snosrap]

What's up with the all the fixes in LW that breaks previous working features? Is the code structure really that discombobulated? It seems that every patch fixes a lot of previous issues - kudos to the team for that - but breaks about as many different things that got fixed. Is LW really nothing more than a ball of band aids? At this rate nothing new will ever come to LW as so much effort needs to be put in fixing stuff.

[MonroePoteet]

What's up with the all the fixes in LW that breaks previous working features?...

To what are you referring? Some specific example(s) would be good.

Having worked in very complex code myself, any sort of high-performance system is extremely interwoven and it *is* easy to have side effects from seemingly simple changes. I worked on operating systems internals for quite a while and we spent a large amount of time on "regression testing" to insure these sort of functional side-effects don't happen. My guess is that LWDG does the same type of regression testing but some stuff slips through the cracks.

If you point out the "previous working features" that have stopped working in LW2018.0.2, I'd bet LWDG will fix them ASAP and maybe even add a test or two to the regression test suite.

mTp

[raymondtrace]

All code is really that sensitive.

[[email protected]]

yup.

[Snosrap]

To what are you referring? Some specific example(s) would be good.

Well here for one: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....-0-2-spotlight

and here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....ighlight=tweak

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All code is really that sensitive.

Really?

[SBowie]

Really?

Having worked at several developers over the years, I'd say (with regret) that this often true. A single small change often has unexpected ramifications (especially where, as in our video product lineup, there is a lot of shared code for multiple products). And no amount of in-house testing every comes close to the baptism by fire that occurs when changes propagate to the broader user crowd.

[MonroePoteet]

Well here for one: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....-0-2-spotlight

and here: http://forums.newtek.com/showthread....ighlight=tweak

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Really?

OK, thanks for the examples. As I said, I'd bet LWDG will fix them ASAP once reported.

RE: "Really?" - bullet-proof code (or what's called "zero-defect programming") is possible, but it's development is usually very limited in scope, is EXTREMELY SLOW to produce and is (almost) always done from scratch rather than with any sort of legacy code. There really isn't any way to be competitive with zero-defect programming except in situations where failure is unacceptable (e.g. lives are lost at a failure). As well, bullet-proof code tends to be really slow performance-wise because of safety checks (e.g. buffer overflows), parameter checking (untrusted callers and messages), the overhead of object-oriented re-usable code which has a lot of hidden parameter copying and V-table lookups, etc.

Even using zero-defect programming initially, any changes to the "perfect" code, even minor changes, have to go through the same exacting process involving "proofs of correctness" and meta-languages for propagating the "requirements" into implementation.

In the O/S work I did, we did 100% code reviews: every check-in was reviewed by at least two other engineers, often experts (i.e. the original design and author of the code), sent through unit, regression and systems testing and even then the "baptism by fire" in customer environments and usage SBowie refers to might find unforeseen side-effects. As I said, any sort of high-performance code is extremely interwoven and often has dependencies far and wide for correct behavior.

I doubt if LWDG *wants* to break things!

mTp

[Snosrap]

So your saying we are screwed. Actually I thought 2018.0.0 was a pretty good release. Then .0.1 came out and it went to he(( , so .0.2 came out and made Modeler usable again but now some other things are borked that were fine in .0.1 - so yeah it's frustrating. Although I imagine it's worse for the devs. It seems like certain things in the code would be isolated from other certain things.

[SBowie]

I think the point people are suggesting is that this is not unique to LW ... it's basically the current state of the software industry at large.

[[email protected]]

Truly the point is: writing software IS that way, all across the board.

Yes, if we are screwed we've been screwed by everyone that sells us code. Not just LW.

Ever wonder why there aren't 10 or 20 high quality apps of any kind? Programming is hard, especially when you throw thousands of people at it trying to 'break' it.

[SBowie]

... especially when you throw thousands of people at it trying to 'break' it.

This said, we call these people "users" (as opposed, for example, to calling them "breakers") and we really do want them to have the best possible experience.

[Snosrap]

Well I guess if it's complicated to use it must also be complicated to make.

[JohnMarchant]

So your saying we are screwed. Actually I thought 2018.0.0 was a pretty good release. Then .0.1 came out and it went to he(( , so .0.2 came out and made Modeler usable again but now some other things are borked that were fine in .0.1 - so yeah it's frustrating. Although I imagine it's worse for the devs. It seems like certain things in the code would be isolated from other certain things.

Something i have noticed about 2018 developement is that the previous versions are no long available in our account. Is there a reason for this apart from wanting us to all use the same version. I have all of the version of 2015/11/10 available. Oops sorry no not all versions of 10 are available, my bad.

[shrox]

One time, I was at work walking past a programmer's cubicle, and I just glanced at the screen and the code broke immediately.

[SBowie]

Well I guess if it's complicated to use it must also be complicated to make.

One of the most complicated parts is keeping it as simple as possible.