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Thread: Hypervoxels VS New Volumetrics

  1. #1
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Hypervoxels VS New Volumetrics

    Hi folks..

    Just installed Lightwave 2018 some hour ago, and the very first thing I promised to check was the new volumetric system, so here I will put up some initial impressions on it..maybe images later, I only got a few hours left today, then back to bed before a full work weekend.

    Since Ivé been a fan of the Hypervoxels system, and used it quite a bit..I thought I should share some findings between them two, though what I initially say may be subject for change during my exploration, where things are not as I expected them to be in hypervoxels etc, and things will work quite differently, some things removed etc.

    Initially I have both bad impressions as well as good ones, and I got my first Lightwave crash after an hour using only the volumetrics and increasing particles.
    I am not that overall joyfull of how they designed how to work with the volumetrics, I really loved the way you could keep track of things and set things up in the hypervoxels window, but there you go..things change, and it now is more of drop down lists and more of nodes actually required to get a hypertexture going, so for me at this time I feel it to be a non inituive way of working, perhaps slower...but as I said, it can be a part of how I am used to it as well.

    PARTICLE SCALE AND BLENDING...
    Random scale for hypervoxel size was previously an option in a slider to scale right under particle size in the hypervoxel system, in the new system it has no such option...so after lurking, I tried nodes and used particle Id and random scale plugged in to radius, as you can see..such process is much harder for a newbie..or anyone else to actually get started with, a simple random scale value I think they should try and implement, and able to override if you want nodes.
    I also found that you may actually use an actual particle emitters particle size and random size instead, that will also yield random scale for the particles, random scale is often essential for more natural looking clouds for instance.

    Regarding blending between two or more volumetric items, as well as particle blending, the blending quality now is finally just as good as old dynamite I think, in previous hypervoxels it was quite poor in comparison, that that is a thumbs up.

    QUALITY..
    The quality of the density edges/smoothness is now much better, where you previously had to set some gradients in local density to smooth out edges...so that is a thumbs up.
    I do have to figure out final quality and render settings though, since it seems it can be noisy if not set right.

    SPEED...
    We can now clone volumetric items/nulls for instance and overlap them without it halting the system, which was the case of what happened when using two nulls with hypervoxels..so this is a good improvement on how you can design clouds with several volumetric items.

    I am a bit confused about the speed, it seems to iterate a bit too slow in vpr with the finer smoothing of the volumetric system..when it tries to refine away the noise, if it were to be 3 -4 times faster, I would have been satisfied..as it is now, it can actually seem to be slower than hypervoxels..depending on what mode you have set hypervoxels at, then again it may be unfair to compare it fully against eachother, since the new system is supposed to be more realistic in itīs properties.

    OPEN GL..
    I have complained about that we can not see hypervoxels in opengl except a sort of wireframe representation, it now has an option to show it more volume like, but it seems only quite flat, not as good as with dynamite opengl for instance...as I can tell so far anyway.

    So many things I have complained about, seem to have improved and taken care of, but it has also changed drasticly how you set up and work with volumetrics in such design that I am not that joyful about how that turned out.

    SPRITES...
    I havenīt seen where to get to that.

    The extremely simple particle scene I set up with an emitter and volumetric..it crashed, and when trying to load that very scenefile, it crashes constantly.

  2. #2
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    To note, you can add the old hypervoxels system to lightwave 2018, under effects tab..legacy volumetrics, you can add hypervoxels or pixie dust, you then have to go to the volumetrics tab and also check the use lecacy volumetrics.
    But you can not use them both togeter, but at least it is a backup if you need it to perform with old volumetrics, and in case you need sprites the old way..or hypervoxel style of volumetrics, that said..the new volumetrics end result of blending, and using multiple items, cubic volumetric item..will surely expand on some things, though it seem to be a bit harder to set up and not as fast and easy going to work with as withing the hypervoxels interface...at least for me, for some others it may be the opposity and I would have to await some input from others.

  3. #3
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    The Sunsky plugin from dpont sort of works half way, you can add the sunsky environment, but it seems the sunsky light in the light properties will not change, when you choose it from the list, it still remains as a distant light..thus the color and intensity that affects the volumetric light will not adapt to such changes unfortunately, they are probably not compatible yet.




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  4. #4
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Also rman gardner clouds and all those textures, not working for me here wich is a bit of a bummer, hope dpont may look in to that.

  5. #5

    unsure if DPont will keep developing plugins for LightWave, seem to recall i read that he was busy elsewhere. (?)

    good notes on HyperVoxels.

    regarding longer rendertime, the quality is much higher, and also includes more possibilities.
    LightWave 2018 is basically Made to render Blade Runner exteriors  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr1PC0iI3IE


    > except Octane perhaps might be the render engine.
    Last edited by erikals; 01-01-2018 at 12:44 PM.
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  6. #6
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    unsure if DPont will keep developing plugins for LightWave, seem to recall i read that he was busy elsewhere. (?)

    good notes on HyperVoxels.

    regarding longer rendertime, the quality is much higher, and also includes more possibilities.
    LightWave 2018 is basically Made to render Blade Runner exteriors  

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr1PC0iI3IE


    > except Octane perhaps might be the render engine.
    That would be sad for procedural texturing, a workaround for getting gardner clouds in though, that would be to install the standard rman textures, and in the node editor add a color layer instead, and from there you can choose the rman textures such as rman clouds and weather, and feed it in to the texture input of the new volumetric item.
    As seen in the image...but the node version doesnīt seem to work though it is there.
    For sunsky and the Sk_sun light that doesnīt work .letīs hope Anti can look in to a new model for sky..heard something about that, and make sure we get a decent sky model that works with the newer volumetrics more seamless

    Good thing with the new volumetrics, we do not get any round spherical volume falloff no more, this stuff seem to blend better, here it is particles..but it seems to be the same on null items as well, and the softness of the volumetrics is much better.
    I still have to adjust how to get lighting and shading properly and how to tweak them best, the asymmetry value is very important and seem to like only small values for good detail results.



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    I haven't gone very far when it comes to the clouds etc.. I really only had one look at them so far:

    http://www.planetrift.com/files/comp1.mp4 (VDB volumetrics)

    Personally I haven't had a single crash, other than when I tried to use Octane. Other than that, things are amazingly stable for me at least.
    Also, text is improved in this version.
    Last edited by MichaelT; 01-01-2018 at 01:31 PM.

  8. #8
    Registered User tyrot's Avatar
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    how do you use this system with particles ? New volumetrics i mean ..

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    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelT View Post
    I haven't gone very far when it comes to the clouds etc.. I really only had one look at them so far:

    http://www.planetrift.com/files/comp1.mp4 (VDB volumetrics)

    Personally I haven't had a single crash, other than when I tried to use Octane. Other than that, things are amazingly stable for me at least.
    Also, text is improved in this version.
    Huh..thatīs not clouds, thatīs fire..just so you know

    One crash only so far, still only gotten to try volumetrics ..especially for cloud stuff, a new learning curve with getting the light and volume shading right and looking good etc.

  10. #10
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyrot View Post
    how do you use this system with particles ? New volumetrics i mean ..
    add your particle emitter as usual, hit "p" for properties, by default the primitive tab should be highlighted, it is here you choose primitive type..by default it will be mesh, change it to volumetric and you will then have turned your particles to volumetrics.

    or if you start with a null as volumetric item primitive, adding particles in the property fx tab for the null, then the particles will override the null, and it will be those that are active as volumetric items.

  11. #11
    Registered User tyrot's Avatar
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    thanks mate ... for the info

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    Yeah I know its fire... but in any case, I made a proper cloud too just now:


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    I'm happy with how easy it is though.

  13. #13
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    for improving the quality of the volumetrics, you will actually find that in the lights tab and itīs volumetric sample, it will remove most of the grain if set to 5 or higher, at the cost of longer render times, also to note, the volumetric intensity in the light tab, can
    boost the looks quite a bit.
    step size in the volumetric item tab is also necessary to keep lower rather than higher for good quality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelT View Post
    Yeah I know its fire... but in any case, I made a proper cloud too just now:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    yep..thatīs good, I do wish however that they introduce a sky model ASAP, or clouds will mostly not react properly to environment, or should I say blend, clouds are only half way of a good sky with clouds.

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    Hmm.. not so sure about that. It seems to me they they opened up enough things to make motions around mountains etc.. more believable.

  15. #15
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelT View Post
    Hmm.. not so sure about that. It seems to me they they opened up enough things to make motions around mountains etc.. more believable.
    Im not taking about mountains, but where clouds usually lives, in the air, it is essential for doing realistic renderings ..if you do not intend to cover the whole sky with just full density clouds.

    as far as motions around mountains, not sure what you mean.

    I can say this though, nebula stuff or whispy clouds will more realistic, so they raised that a bit..since it can have so nice smooth density and softness...will not be able to post images today though.
    cirrus clouds or other feather cloud stuff can be made nicely, though you may need to feed the procedural texture in to texture density as well.

    Ogo taiki will still be the one that could produce the best overall skies..Even with this new volumetric..(except that for hero clouds this new stuff may be better), with proper spectral lighting etc fog etc, though it was too slow to render and to complex regarding quality settings, and setting things up.

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