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Thread: c4d

  1. #1

    c4d

    do we have any c4d users here -

    How do you like it better than lightwave?

    Pro's cons vs lightwave?

    thanks

    c4d and octane - Interesting stuff - I'm liking some of the things i see in c4d

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=tQQvBmAPNyI

  2. #2
    Carbon fibre dongleŽ 50one's Avatar
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    The place I work at uses c4D and octane exclusively. Had to switch to it 6 months ago.

    - Undo just works
    - animation controls are OK
    - scene tree is just plain annoying if you start adding a lot of stuff, only way to organise is to group by nulls...
    - Octane renderer is not that great as you would think, yeah it's fast but material editor kinda lacks, look at the bump controls and 'mix material' you will see what I mean
    - modelling sucks, just plain sucks - there's no copy/paste on polygons something so basic....and there's no polygon detach....

    UV tools sucks *** along with controls for placement - I switched from Modo

    - viewport chokes when you have few really moderate objects with subd applied...


    On a good note
    - alembic import works really nice

  3. #3
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    I used to be a freelancer using C4d, until the maintenance upkeep costs just went through the roof.

    Cons:
    - far too expensive for what it offers (in my opinion)
    - clunky modeling, but I hear it's somewhat improved in the latest two versions.
    - UV tools are terribly outdated.
    - various modules, once introduced, hardly are updated, if at all, for years on end (BodyPaint, PyroCluster, Sketch&Toon,...)
    - built-in rendering is okay, but behind the competition.
    - division of product features into four versions (Prime, Broadcast, Visualise, and Studio) is confusing, and dynamics only (mostly) available the Studio version. For example, basic stuff like sculpting and shadow catcher are only available in the Studio version (well, sculpting is also added to the BodyPaint version - but that's a very basic Prime version with BodyPaint and sculpting).
    - once you get really familiar with the software, it becomes arguably rather clunky to work with.
    - you are really going to miss those node-based materials.
    - some very lackluster updates in the past couple of versions. Some good, but mostly quite limited. Don't expect revolutionary tools from Maxon.

    Pros:
    - arguably the easiest 3d app to learn.
    - MoGraph is the single best reason to own a copy of C4d. Unfortunately, Maxon hasn't really done a lot of updating of MoGraph in the past few years. Still an excellent FX addon for broadcast work.
    - excellent integration with AfterEffects.
    - good outline, nice non-destructive modeling stack. Lightwave is lacking in this area.
    - solid performance and stability.
    - for the most part, all modules are quite nicely packaged and integrated.
    - one of the most configurable GUIs as far as 3d apps go
    - good number of external render engines available. You will need/want one at some point.
    - BodyPaint is still nice to have as a 3d painting module. Heck, it beats Photoshop ;-)
    - most tools are solid. Excellent bevel tools.
    - outstanding text tool (really, lightwave?).
    - good CAD integration/file type support
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  4. #4
    Dreamer Ztreem's Avatar
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    On a good note
    - alembic import works really nice
    Interesting!? My experience is that Alembic works better in lightwave. Could be better in c4d r18 but in 16/17 it didnt work as good as lightwave. We did some bullet explosions with a lot of small pieces and we did it in LW beacuse it felt too slow in c4d. Then we used Alembic to transfer the animation to c4d and it was horrible slow and crashed c4d several times, so we decided to do the whole shot in LW instead.

  5. #5
    Carbon fibre dongleŽ 50one's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ztreem View Post
    Interesting!? My experience is that Alembic works better in lightwave. Could be better in c4d r18 but in 16/17 it didnt work as good as lightwave. We did some bullet explosions with a lot of small pieces and we did it in LW beacuse it felt too slow in c4d. Then we used Alembic to transfer the animation to c4d and it was horrible slow and crashed c4d several times, so we decided to do the whole shot in LW instead.
    I've used MODO's deformers to animate twisting cables, all sorts of mechanical animations with lot's of nodes/math and it exported with no issues into R18, plus it's "streamed" if you don't turn it into mesh, so you can change stuff in that alembic file and it will get reflected in C4D...the only issue is the scale factor - takes a few saves to find the correct scale for some reason.

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    I love working in C4D.

    Yes, UV tools, BodyPaint and PyroCluster are outdated but Maxon just released a public beta (!) of a new BodyPaint and they are aware of the uv tools. At the moment there is a plugin available called Seamilar which works similar to 3D Coat but I guess R19 will have new UV tools.

    New C4D features are presented at SigGraph and C4D is released the same day / week every year, shipped in a nice package.

    MoGraph is constantly updated (see all the new great generators and modifiers in R18 like PushApart, ReEffector, Mograph Weight Paint, VoronoiFracture etc.).

    I absolutely love modeling in C4D, a completely different league compared to LW. Just my opinion, but after working a while in C4D I find LW (including LWCAD and 3rdPowers) absolutely clunky. Workplanes, Snapping, Quantizing, SoloMode, Beveling, Knife, PolyPen, EdgeSlide, Deformers, Generators, Sculpting, Undo for Selections, selection tools etc. Very few commands that are very powerful. Most modeling operations can be done with only Move/Rotate/Scale and PolyPen (combined with Shift, Ctrl & left/right Mouse for copy, bevel, cut etc.). To see this simplicity requires the user to learn the different modes of these universal tools but once learned it's fast and intuitive. Very nice spline editing tools with realtime preview of the change. Perfect non-destructive Sweeps, Lathe, Booleans, Symmetry, Subdivision, Bevels, Cage Deformer etc. Almost every parameter is animatable. Then there is the possibility to animate without key frames using nodes / XPresso, Effectors, Modifiers or third party plugins like Signal and Transform.

    Yes, copy & paste polygons is a click easier in LW but of course also possible with the Clone command.

    Then there are Tags, Render Passes, Takes & Tokens, Layers, Spline Dynamics, Substance & Houdini Engine integration, Camera rigs, OpenSubDiv, GPU accelerated viewport tesselation, viewport reflections etc.

    All tools like Graph Editor, Node Editor, Scene Editor, Viewport etc. use the same shortcuts as a user would expect. Commands can be used with shortcuts, icons, text buttons, command line (shift+c), radial menu, context menu etc., customizable and arranged wherever you like it. Built-in and custom layouts to switch and it works properly on high-dpi displays.

    The Physical renderer can produce beautiful images but it's a bit slow, but LWs current renderer can maybe be compared to C4D Standard renderer which is pretty fast. But I use also Vray and Cycles4D. However Maxon is working together with NVidia iRay and Radeon ProRender for new versions.

    I find C4D does so many things better and more intuitive than LW which a user will only find out after working with it for a while. It's so well engineered in my opinion, very stable and it just works as a user would expect. Also there are so many time savers and plugins. An example: I can load a character, have it rigged, HDRI lit with a walk cycle, IK goals etc., all within just a few minutes, ready to render.

    There are very powerful plugins for C4D and the great thing is that they all work fine together (for example combine X-Particles with TurbulenceFD, legacy particles, ThinkingParticles and Dynamics, combined with MoGraph objects etc.). Of course all in a non-destructive workflow. LW: every plugin is an isle solution with its physique engine, interface etc., a complete mess.

    There is a huge and great C4D community. There are new tutorials and resources every day. Cineversity is great with teachers that create effects for Marvel (Perception) for example.

    One thing I like better in LW is VPR (but there is the interactive render region in C4D and IPR for Cycles4D/Vray/Octane/Arnold).
    Last edited by Marander; 05-13-2017 at 05:39 AM.

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    I got C4D recently, but so far I'm very happy with it. I can easily point fingers at things in every app. I don't think there is a one tool solution, and there never will be. But having C4D + LW (and Blender because it is free. Really.. get it if you haven't. You don't have an excuse) complements each other greatly. I feel so anyway.
    But to just give an example.. I quickly found out UV in C4D isn't great. So I brought the model into LW, fixed the UV, and sent it back. Things like that is the reason I think it is good to have a wide selection of tools. So you spend less time trying to fix things, and more time just moving along.
    Last edited by MichaelT; 05-13-2017 at 07:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50one View Post
    - scene tree is just plain annoying if you start adding a lot of stuff, only way to organise is to group by nulls...
    That's not really accurate, the ObjMgr supports arbitrarily-assigned layers, filtering-by-layer, and so forth as well, not just "group-by-nulls".

    In general, my feelings on C4D are pretty similar to Marander's.

    C4D's modeling workflow is quite different from LW's (it's much more procedural in that regard), but I find it quite fast/efficient once you understand the workflow. C4D's bevel, knife, and text tools, for example, are actually much more capable/usable than LW's equivalents. The broad array of provided, freely-available, and commercial deformers are another huge modeling (and animation) plus for C4D.

    In general, C4D has a substantially broader and deeper third-party plugin/add-on market. From an API perspective (esp. w.r.t. Python), C4D's is significantly broader/deeper than LW's (just about everything is accessible by API), and because C4D has a much richer set of infrastructure services (among other benefits), developing complex plugins is much clearer/more direct using C4D's APIs. Third-party devs basically have "native-equivalent" access to infrastructure services (undo, snapping, guides, etc.), geometry, and so forth. Those benefits definitely help C4D's popularity among third-party developers.

    C4D's Object Manager (& Tag Manager) display gives some of the best visibility of model and scene construction and inter-relationships of all the general-purpose 3D pkgs. Users can view and manipulate just about every relevant attribute, property and relationship present in the scene between those two. In contrast, doing the same in LW requires digging around across multiple different panels/dialogs (sometimes iteratively per object) -- LW's overall entity and relationship visibility / accessibility is much, much poorer than C4D's.

    The main con is the initial buy-in cost, which is quite high. Annual C4D MSA upgrades are only ~US$650, so there's less cost disparity there. C4D's outstanding stability somewhat makes up for that initial cost, IMO, because you don't lose anywhere near as much time over issues, or reconstructing working environment, compared to LW. Nonetheless (again, IMO), even the stability time benefit alone doesn't offset the much higher initial buy-in cost. MAXON has some pretty decent deals during the year, so obtaining as much as a 50% discount off retail for initial buy-in has been (and likely will be) possible. Despite that, I still think C4D's initial buy-in value-for-cost proposition could be better, and a lower initial buy-in cost would significantly improve adoption.
    Last edited by jwiede; 05-13-2017 at 10:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 50one View Post
    - scene tree is just plain annoying if you start adding a lot of stuff, only way to organise is to group by nulls...
    As mentioned by jwiede you can use Layers, Filters, Search or using Takes (which is very powerful).

    Here's a trick: CTRL+ALT+doubleclick on grouped items, then this group becomes the root and all others are hidden. A click on the home icon brings back the world root.

    By opening a second ObjectManager and placing it on a second monitor you can have a subset of objects / different root available very easily for complex scenes.

  10. #10
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I´m interested to hear about cinema4d turbulenceFD fluids VS Lightwave turbulenceFD, but I reckon there is little chance of someone having them and tried them on both systems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    I´m interested to hear about cinema4d turbulenceFD fluids VS Lightwave turbulenceFD, but I reckon there is little chance of someone having them and tried them on both systems.
    Yes I do have them both, license for TFD for C4D and LW.

    However the one on LW doesn't work at the moment (with the latest versions), it crashes when opening any dialog box. I tried already several things to fix this but no success so far.

    The big difference is that I can use TFD to drive X-Particles simulation, particle advection and it looks nicer in the viewport.

    What would you like to know?

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    Visualization FreeLance THIBAULT's Avatar
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    It is interesting to note that Lwcad is available on C4D and is very stable and intuitive

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    A very small and minor point, but I think if you buy into 4D and upgrade to the next version, the upgrade used to come as a boxed disc but is now download only. It still has the same wonderful licencing, but is no longer a physical item.

    Also, as people are pointing out, the plugins and render options are a factor. I thought the Holy Grail of rendering had come along with Octane, but I hear it isn't great in indoor simulations. The recent LW thread with the Tyrannosaurus skeleton rendering comparisons seemed to back this up. Redshift for 4D looks particularly interesting. Vray always impresses, but for the money I would fear CPU rendering compared to GPU.

  14. #14
    Registered User Rayek's Avatar
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    Each app has its ups and downs.
    With OD_CopyPasteExternal it becomes pretty simple to have various apps open and quickly switch for specific unique modeling operations. While C4d isn't supported yet, I believe work is underway.
    https://heimlich1024.github.io/OD_CopyPasteExternal/
    Win10 64 - i7 [email protected], p6t Deluxe v1, 48gb, Nvidia GTX 1080 8GB, Revodrive X2 240gb, e-mu 1820. Screens: 2 x Samsung s27a850ds 2560x1440, HP 1920x1200 in portrait mode

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLexx View Post
    A very small and minor point, but I think if you buy into 4D and upgrade to the next version, the upgrade used to come as a boxed disc but is now download only. It still has the same wonderful licencing, but is no longer a physical item.
    Maybe depending on where you by (Maxon UK / US / Online Store). I bought through a reseller (Allplan) and I got a box for R17 (with DVDs) and for R18 (with a USB-Stick). I really like this but the downside is that I have to wait some days for the package to arrive.

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