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Thread: Come on LWG3D, show us some nuggets!

  1. #706
    I'm not sure many people here are trying to make a personal argument against keeping the old engine as an option, I think its more of a practical argument. I think its already been said by Lino or someone else from LW3DG that the old renderer won't be an option in the next version of LightWave. I think the difference between LightWave and another app like Maya having more than one renderer as an option is that they've added renderers to Maya where LightWave is completely replacing the rendering engine as a means to replace key parts of the architecture itself. Keeping the old renderer with its ties to aging LW architecture would be sort of defeating the point. People have accused LightWave development of throwing more and more on top of outdated architecture, I for one am happy to see them take the approach of actually replacing instead of piling more on top.

  2. #707
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelT View Post
    But I suppose it is possible to create a plugin to mimic the old lw version, so that older plugins work without any changes. But the performance would most likely be a bit slower. In any case, this is not something they should think of for this release. That is something anyone can do themselves.
    Actually, it isn't -- LWSDK doesn't allow hooking/intercepting LW plugin loading/binding, nor exposes the extension cache internals. Because LW solely handles all plugin loading and symbol-binding internally, there's no way for third-party code to replicate the necessary plugin loading functionality (even if they could somehow provide compatibility API layers). Only LW3DG could practically implement such a "legacy plugin" compatibility layer in a stable, reliable manner.
    Last edited by jwiede; 11-26-2016 at 06:58 PM.
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  3. #708
    Axes grinder- Dongle #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by bazsa73 View Post
    The old render engine was built around the old geo engine, probably hardcoded at several point but that's only an assumption. But still I believe the render and geo engine are wired together in such a fashion that making any further developement in any of the system caused serious integrity errors as we saw from the strange bugs but maybe that was due to the core code injection into old code.
    I lack the math to appreciate this, but: how can that be, when there are 3rd party renderers? They plugin into Layout, don't they?

    I can understand that Surfaces/Materials and things such as Hypervoxels would be incompatible, but surely the geometry is simple, no?
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  4. #709
    Super Member spherical's Avatar
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    From what I've learned over the months, Layout doesn't completely understand Modeler's geo in the way that one would think. If it did, then unifying the applications would be easier, there wouldn't be the need to bounce back and forth between Layout and Modeler to modify geo, etc. Yes, there are renderer plugins that interface with Layout, but they require re-surfacing of the meshes using the external renderer's nodes, etc. So, you're still re-working assets to make them compatible with that renderer. That said, it would seem that the current renderer could work the same way as Octane; using the current internal set of nodes and Surface layers with the current renderer, except for the fact that the mesh system is no longer what it was. The reason for a ground-up approach across the board is that there is a new mesh system that the new renderer will be able to take advantage of, nodes and all.
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  5. #710
    Forget your dreams and hopes for the old render to be included, it won't, as stipulated many time by the LW team. I think you can set up non photo-real renders in a physical based renderer, I would expect LW to be aware of this requirement, giving us nodal control of our materials to create incorrect yet beautiful shaders, it would come down to surfacing and lighting. Don't panic people and embrace what should be a better renderer. If it isn't better I would be first to complain. Perhaps an option would be to allow free download and use of LW 2015 with any new purchase of LW next (for those that would actually want it). Personally I think we should just move forward.

  6. #711
    Registered User tyrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djwaterman View Post
    Perhaps an option would be to allow free download and use of LW 2015 with any new purchase of LW next (for those that would actually want it). Personally I think we should just move forward.
    one of the best proposal of this long thread ... totally agree..

  7. #712
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwiede View Post
    Actually, it isn't -- LWSDK doesn't allow hooking/intercepting LW plugin loading/binding, nor exposes the extension cache internals. Because LW solely handles all plugin loading and symbol-binding internally, there's no way for third-party code to replicate the necessary plugin loading functionality (even if they could somehow provide compatibility API layers). Only LW3DG could practically implement such a "legacy plugin" compatibility layer in a stable, reliable manner.
    Naturally any 3rd party tools designed to mimic black box behavior, won't be exact without knowledge of the internals. You only have information on expected I/O to work on. That said, as far as creating a plugin to translate said inputs to the new version (and back) should be doable, unless there are pieces that for some reason are no longer possible to translate. That will be a problem.. but since we know nothing about the communications layers in the new version.. it is just speculations by all of us at this point anyway That doesn't mean (in theory) that it isn't possible.

  8. #713
    LightWave development will not be guided at all in any way shape or form or by the state of existing plugins. No software is. Ever.

    However developers have their ear to the ground as to what plugins are used and why. They fully and completely understand the important role plugins play. These guys know what holes plugins are filling and why. They are also perpetually interacting with plugin developers. Thee is a symbiotic relationship there, to a greater or lesser degree on a case by case basis.

    Every single software out there has a presence of plugins, free and commercial. It is part and parcel to the entire process of developing. The SDK is as much of a WIP as the software is. Making it better for developers to contribute. They spend time and money on it. It is a part of the development process. A vital part of it I imagine. And certainly inseparable.

    That said, there is no way the consideration of plugins would ever, or should ever be a consideration in the development process. And I would bet. In fact. No. I would simply go on basic logic and simply state as a matter of fact that no software team decides what to do based on keeping or loosing a particular pack of plugins.

    It goes the other way. They develop and make decisions based on where they need know they need and want to do. The SDK comes after. ( in terms of importance) Of course if they could avoid problems with the SDK I am sure they would. But it can not really be what drives major decisions. Major concerns first, SDK and the ramifications after. From there, the 3D party developers step up and update or they don't. That is their own prerogative. But it can not be the concern of the developers. No way. That is not their problem. The demand that already exists for plugins is felt by the 3D party plugin developers, not the native software developers. It is simply not their responsibility. Their obligation is to provide the SDK. And that is where it begins and ends. The 3D developers feel pressure and get hounded by demands of users and then meet them. Or they don't. Not the native developers. It is not their job.

    A situation such as this happened in recent years with Maya. As of 2014.5 onward, it broke pretty much everything. Nothing worked for a while as the 3rd Party developers caught up. Both free and commercial. Yeah it was a PIA, but it was necessary.

    That is the way that it works. Not rocket science to figure that one. I am not a 3rd Party developer or a software engineer. But I'll take this logic to the bank any day of the week.
    Last edited by Surrealist.; 11-27-2016 at 02:44 AM.

  9. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealist. View Post
    LightWave development will not be guided at all in any way shape or form or by the state of existing plugins. No software is. Ever.

    However developers have their ear to the ground as to what plugins are used and why. They fully and completely understand the important role plugins play. These guys know what holes plugins are filling and why. They are also perpetually interacting with plugin developers. Thee is a symbiotic relationship there, to a greater or lesser degree on a case by case basis.

    Every single software out there has a presence of plugins, free and commercial. It is part and parcel to the entire process of developing. The SDK is as much of a WIP as the software is. Making it better for developers to contribute. They spend time and money on it. It is a part of the development process. A vital part of it I imagine. And certainly inseparable.

    That said, there is no way the consideration of plugins would ever, or should ever be a consideration in the development process. And I would bet. In fact. No. I would simply go on basic logic and simply state as a matter of fact that no software team decides what to do based on keeping or loosing a particular pack of plugins.

    It goes the other way. They develop and make decisions based on where they need know they need and want to do. The SDK comes after. ( in terms of importance) Of course if they could avoid problems with the SDK I am sure they would. But it can not really be what drives major decisions. Major concerns first, SDK and the ramifications after. From there, the 3D party developers step up and update or they don't. That is their own prerogative. But it can not be the concern of the developers. No way. That is not their problem. The demand that already exists for plugins is felt by the 3D party plugin developers, not the native software developers. It is simply not their responsibility. Their obligation is to provide the SDK. And that is where it begins and ends. The 3D developers feel pressure and get hounded by demands of users and then meet them. Or they don't. Not the native developers. It is not their job.

    A situation such as this happened in recent years with Maya. As of 2014.5 onward, it broke pretty much everything. Nothing worked for a while as the 3rd Party developers caught up. Both free and commercial. Yeah it was a PIA, but it was necessary.

    That is the way that it works. Not rocket science to figure that one. I am not a 3rd Party developer or a software engineer. But I'll take this logic to the bank any day of the week.
    No one is saying that nt should be beholden to 3rd parties. They can break whatever they want, but ultimately it falls on nt to produce a version of their software that people want to upgrade to. You can't break some of the most powerful features in your app, not offer a replacement, and expect people to upgrade. In the end most people will make their decision to upgrade based on what has been gained compared to what has been lost. So the ball is in nts court... the more they break the more impressive this next version will have to be. Of couse there are people who will upgrade no matter what... but I think it is the other people who may be getting ready to go elsewhere that nt should really be catering to. A lot of people are waiting on this version to make a decision to stick around or not... so lets hope we are all impressed.

    3rd party or native are meaningless words to me as a user/artist... I care about what I can do in sofware A compared to what I can do in sofware B... and that is how I decide to spend my money. Could care less why the tool is no longer available, just that its not... the rest is on nt to figure out.

  10. #715
    Also... you have no clue as to what type of relationship all these 3rd parties have with nt. Nt has made many enemies over the years. It would not surprise me in the least bit if some 3rd parties could care less what nt says or does and has no contact with them. 3rd parties come and go at their own will... a smart company would not be in the position that nt is now in... a smart company would integrate this functionality themself so they are not beholden to outside parties at all.

  11. #716
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    I am guessing that maybe some of the main 3rd party developers will be given the SDK well before we see the product, so that they can get a head start on making their plugins compatible with the new version.

  12. #717
    www.Digitawn.co.uk rustythe1's Avatar
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    well just think how many plugins stopped working when it all went 64 bit, or 7 to 8, 8 to 9, even 10 to 15, many developers added a version check so even if it would work it often became difficult or impossible to install
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  13. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustythe1 View Post
    well just think how many plugins stopped working when it all went 64 bit, or 7 to 8, 8 to 9, even 10 to 15, many developers added a version check so even if it would work it often became difficult or impossible to install
    Hell, for you fellow Mac guys, remember when Apple abandoned Rosetta support? The hue and cry was deafening. I still have an external drive with a bootable Snow Leopard OS on it in case I ever need to use something that went poof after that move.
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  14. #719
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    Ditto.
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  15. #720
    TD/Animator lino.grandi's Avatar
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    Hello everyone.
    Just a quick comment about 3rd party and LW Next.
    We're very aware 3rd Party Plugins are very important for our community, and we've been doing (and still doing) our best to have them updated and perfectly compatible with LW Next.
    Our relationship with 3rd Party Developers is in general very good, and we've always been very open to their needs.
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    http://www.youtube.com/user/Official...?feature=watch

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