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Thread: Autodesk Details Subscription Transition for New Software Licenses

  1. #31
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    I'm not sure where people are looking, but 3ds Max on its own is $185/month, $460/quarter, or $1470/year. Or, you can buy it as a perpetual license for $3675.

    Its the Ultimate Design Suite that appears as $290/month.

    Still wouldn't be happy if I was personally paying for 3ds Max... I hate this forced subscription stuff. A shame my company pays for all our subs... I wouldn't if I was a freelancer.
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  2. #32
    I think that was the disparity by the country - some places in Europe it is much more than that.

  3. #33
    World's Tallest Dwarf safetyman's Avatar
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    I think the point is being missed on the whole ownership thing. If you buy a "boxed" copy of something you can use it forever as long as your computer can run it and it doesn't hamper your workflow. Who cares if AD says it still belongs to them... as far as I'm concerned I can use it until I can't (need to upgrade, too old, slow, etc.). AD realizes this and is forcing folks to jump in to their new sub model. It's a d-bag move, but better for them and their stakeholders, which is all they care about really. Hurrah for big business.

    The other thing I wanted to point out, i.e. theorize is, and I'm flying a little blind on this one so maybe you all can offer your opinions; The larger studios (Pixar, DreamWorks, ILM/Disney, etc.) are adopting their own tools and will eventually have very little need for AD products for the most part. This is more economical for them since they don't have to shell out money for dozens or hundreds of licenses -- they can use their own tools that are tailored towards their workflows. AD will soon not be able to cater to their biggest customers without some other changes. This leaves game studios (?) and the smaller shops that don't have the resources to create their own tools. Where does this leave AD? Could we see a major shift in the 3d software market down the road? Is AD so high on themselves that they don't see the bigger picture? I'd like to know your thoughts on this.

  4. #34
    Regarding the ownership thing. I don't think it is an argument, or point of disagreement. I think everyone here agrees with you on that. It was just a legal thing, the use of quotes in that reference, that is all there was to it.

    Regasrding AD use of products in the market. I don't believe the in-house tools are at that level yet. Off the shelf software is still in heavy use and will be for some time.

    I do believe changes are coming though. I think there will be a shift in the market. And from my view it looks like they have been trying - in their own way - to shift with that. I think it is going to continue in this way. I think the future holds more in store for us as artists.

    In general the only thing keeping something like Maya at the top is really no one is offering an alternative. I think that could change. But I am not sure who has a firm grasp on what it would take as well as resources to make that happen. All of the contenders seem to be eking out a niche market. No one is making any sort of concerted effort to do it. Houdini. Now, if they could pull a character animation rabbit out of their hat, and they really poured effort into it, they might be able to make a run for it. Cinema 4D is in good use, but it seems more like a niche market to me. And nothing else really comes close.

    If Blender gets a serious face lift and pulls out the stops, it could make a run for it. But it would have to take about 10x the resources they have now for another 5 years or so. Just guessing. And again is that happening? No. Not really and not going to happen. In two years it will have an impact on the market - which will be great for all of us - but it will not be making a run on the hill.

    It is just like, well no one seems to be trying to knock the king off the hill. I think it could be done. But I don't see anyone trying. More like a lot of people saying that when the giant crumbles it will be good because all of the smaller software companies can pick up the scraps. But I don't hear anyone saying that software X is on the way. I do hear people saying "software X is as good as or better for me" but that is not the same thing.

    If AD went out of business tomorrow, I figure I'd have a good run for at least 2 to 3 years on the software I own now. In that time I would expect Houdni to be the place to look first, followed by maybe Modo for CA stuff, Maybe. And possibly even Blender.

    In effect I 'd be where I was 2 years ago trying to figure out what I thought was the best tool out there and that led me to Maya eventually. I would not enjoy reliving that because there is not much alternative if you want to do the kinds of things I want to do. That is just me.
    Last edited by Surrealist.; 02-06-2015 at 10:56 AM.

  5. #35
    World's Tallest Dwarf safetyman's Avatar
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    I agree with you on all counts, however, I do believe that the bigger studios will eventually break free from AD completely, or at least become MUCH less reliant on their products. It just makes better business sense, especially since it's tough economically to compete these days. You do what you can to survive and if you can cut the cord with third party expenses, so much the better.

  6. #36
    Well there is another thing to consider. And that it that even though there are the in-house tools being used and developed, it is not that simple. It is not like just eventually everyone will turn their backs on 3P software. Some of the largest 3D software companies are working with the largest studios, (Disney) FX houses (ILM) and universities (Carnegie Melon I believe it is) to develop software and releasing some of that technology to the public or releasing it with updates in software available in commercial packages. When you consider what Pixar/Disney is doing with Renderman for example, and open subdiv which also includes Autodesk developing along side this you have already a lot of tools that are in house which develops into software released to us. And in fact a lot of the best software comes about because it is developed in house first. Vray, Renderman... even Blender are all software that originated as studio tools. So I don't think there is such an isolation between the two things. I think what is more likely to happen is that these developments will broaden. And we will see more things like open subdivision, free NC Renderman. I think it will become obvious to these companies that the best thing to do is make software more accessible and have their in-house tools available to people outside of their studios. And these tools will continue to find their way into commercial packages. And because Maya has so many seats it is usually the first to get the benefit of these things like open subdiv, free Renderman etc. So I don't know, I would look more to these companies to continue to broaden their ideas of business model and make software more easily accessible.

    Aside from that I think there is room for ideas to come from small private sector. I really like what David Ikeda is up to. He is an inspiration.
    Last edited by Surrealist.; 02-07-2015 at 07:41 AM.

  7. #37
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by safetyman View Post
    I agree with you on all counts, however, I do believe that the bigger studios will eventually break free from AD completely, or at least become MUCH less reliant on their products. It just makes better business sense, especially since it's tough economically to compete these days. You do what you can to survive and if you can cut the cord with third party expenses, so much the better.
    I'm just not sure about this...
    We only use Autodesk, as they're a large company, and my workplace seems to buy into products purely down to the size of the company that owns them. In some cases this may mean that it's a more stable company, making lots of money, and the product won't go tits up. On the other hand, you're at their beck and call, every decision they make, it's out of your hands. The company I work for doesn't care what they spend on software, otherwise instead of spending millions on MS office suites, they'd use open office.

    Also, on the flip side... I do think the larger studios get assistance from Autodesk in some form or another. We pay for maintenance etc, but every single bug report I've logged with Autodesk, has never been fixed. I'm talking MAJOR bugs, that crash 3ds max. They've been ignored completely, and in fact, they still exist here today, despite me logging the calls 5 years ago.

    Anyway... I'm sure Autodesk provide great support to the large, awesome vfx studios out there, it's in their interest to fix their bugs as they will mention how they worked with Autodesk while they do their (sponsored) presentations at Siggraph

    Call me a cynic, but unfortunately I don't see the big companies turning away from Autodesk too soon. I could of course be totally wrong, and I hope I am!
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  8. #38
    Senior Constrictor Netvudu's Avatar
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    If it means anything, I know for a fact that the support AD gives to the large studios is more or less as useless as the one you just described.
    That´s one of the reasons many of those studios are moving FX departments towards Houdini which has an impressive support (to everyone, not just large studios).
    It is difficult to leave something like Maya behind, though, because there are not so many actual alternatives for riggers and animators...yet.
    3d animation? Hah! Did you take a look through your window?there´s plenty of it...and pre-rendered!!

  9. #39
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netvudu View Post
    If it means anything, I know for a fact that the support AD gives to the large studios is more or less as useless as the one you just described.
    That´s one of the reasons many of those studios are moving FX departments towards Houdini which has an impressive support (to everyone, not just large studios).
    It is difficult to leave something like Maya behind, though, because there are not so many actual alternatives for riggers and animators...yet.
    Interesting, as they always say how much they help their customers during large vfx shots/shows. Better to hear it from the horses mouth rather than Autodesk themselves. Like Framestore talking
    about Arnold at Siggraph... They helped each other tonnes during the course of Gravity.

    Unfortunately Autodesk counter this with impressive marketing campaigns and lies
    We've literally had zero support from them... EVER!
    It amazes me that when I tried to post a bug report before we had support, they whinged and demanded that we paid for maintenance so we could log a bug report... Still isn't fixed... And I don't think they care!
    LairdSquared | 3D Design & Animation

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  10. #40
    BY the way what are those 3D max bugs? Can you help me recreate them? And are you guys using 2015 latest service pack?

    Not inferring it'd be fixed but just curious to make sure we are on the same release.

    I am gonna report them here:

    http://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppor...-bug-html.html

    Also bring them up to my AD Rep who uses Max and see if he can recreate them as well. If so I can have him report it and even try and track it down.
    Last edited by Surrealist.; 02-07-2015 at 10:19 PM.

  11. #41
    i dont like subscription based.
    what happens if i dont use it for 6 months, and then get a gig and start using it again, i'm paying double now for the same software.
    sorta.

    I'd much rather own a software, because say i dont use it for years, i dont have to suddenly buy it again to use it. They keep updating photoshop, but i dont need new - i need it to do what it's done for years, and my adobe version 5 is great for just that, and i dont have to keep throwing money to use it. (very unhappy with adobe subscription crap)


    not to mention the (all your work is tied to it crap and since you let it lapse you can't open your files anymore) What kind of crap is that.

  12. #42
    Often Banned Megalodon2.0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netvudu View Post
    It is difficult to leave something like Maya behind, though, because there are not so many actual alternatives for riggers and animators...yet.
    Perhaps, but what's to stop these studios from using the perpetual licenses they own and adding on functionality for many years to come? And then adding something like Houdini if they need to? For the smaller studios I can see the need to keep up with Maya, but the big guys that develop their own tools may be able to use existing Maya for years to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by vonpietro View Post
    i dont like subscription based.
    what happens if i dont use it for 6 months, and then get a gig and start using it again, i'm paying double now for the same software.
    sorta.

    I'd much rather own a software, because say i dont use it for years, i dont have to suddenly buy it again to use it. They keep updating photoshop, but i dont need new - i need it to do what it's done for years, and my adobe version 5 is great for just that, and i dont have to keep throwing money to use it. (very unhappy with adobe subscription crap)


    not to mention the (all your work is tied to it crap and since you let it lapse you can't open your files anymore) What kind of crap is that.
    Yeah. I've said it MANY times before. You buy software when your business is doing well and hold off when business is not doing well. Imagine having to rent the software just to open and edit your files when your business is in the midst of another recession? Too many people seem to think that it can't happen to them and believe that the "price is so low, it won't matter if there's another recession." If they've never been seriously touched by an extreme downturn, they will be VERY surprised when it does happen and they find the rent they once thought would be easy to pay is now a burden. It WILL happen, but it won't affect me since I won't rent software.

  13. #43
    Not so newbie member lardbros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealist. View Post
    BY the way what are those 3D max bugs? Can you help me recreate them? And are you guys using 2015 latest service pack?

    Not inferring it'd be fixed but just curious to make sure we are on the same release.

    I am gonna report them here:

    http://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppor...-bug-html.html

    Also bring them up to my AD Rep who uses Max and see if he can recreate them as well. If so I can have him report it and even try and track it down.
    Hey Richard,

    Thanks for trying to help! They may not affect everyone, as a few of our guys still using light tracer and a sky done for their stuff.

    Anyway...
    Bug 1:
    Send a scene off to network render, in which you had the Scene Explorer open, and it'll crash all of the nodes. Close it before you send it, and it won't crash!
    This may have been fixed in 2015, as the scene Explorer experience has been totally revamped, but we can't bring ourselves to move over to it fully yet.

    Bug 2:
    Light tracer rendering on a render node with 64 cores causes crashing on the farm.

    These are the two main ones I sent to their bug system, but I've never heard anything from them. Also, I have a feeling that hair and fur doesn't work on a node with 64 cores either. They told us to remove the hair and fur plugin from the install, so that it wouldn't try loading it! Great fix eh?

    Thanks if you can help, and even better if you can reproduce these. They have been around for a number of years.
    LairdSquared | 3D Design & Animation

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  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon2.0 View Post
    Perhaps, but what's to stop these studios from using the perpetual licenses they own and adding on functionality for many years to come? And then adding something like Houdini if they need to? For the smaller studios I can see the need to keep up with Maya, but the big guys that develop their own tools may be able to use existing Maya for years to come.



    Yeah. I've said it MANY times before. You buy software when your business is doing well and hold off when business is not doing well. Imagine having to rent the software just to open and edit your files when your business is in the midst of another recession? Too many people seem to think that it can't happen to them and believe that the "price is so low, it won't matter if there's another recession." If they've never been seriously touched by an extreme downturn, they will be VERY surprised when it does happen and they find the rent they once thought would be easy to pay is now a burden. It WILL happen, but it won't affect me since I won't rent software.
    THIS

    rental only option from autodesk isn't cheap...£1500 per year to rent 1 app or £2880 for suite per year...stop paying = stop being able to open the apps for ANY reason.

    that just is a NO..if rental were £400 a year then "maybe" i'd find it an option but £1500 at it's cheapest by buying 12 months up front is not "cheap"
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon2.0 View Post
    Perhaps, but what's to stop these studios from using the perpetual licenses they own and adding on functionality for many years to come? And then adding something like Houdini if they need to? For the smaller studios I can see the need to keep up with Maya, but the big guys that develop their own tools may be able to use existing Maya for years to come.



    Yeah. I've said it MANY times before. You buy software when your business is doing well and hold off when business is not doing well. Imagine having to rent the software just to open and edit your files when your business is in the midst of another recession? Too many people seem to think that it can't happen to them and believe that the "price is so low, it won't matter if there's another recession." If they've never been seriously touched by an extreme downturn, they will be VERY surprised when it does happen and they find the rent they once thought would be easy to pay is now a burden. It WILL happen, but it won't affect me since I won't rent software.
    I agree 100 %
    these moves by Autodesk strikes me as being somewhat TONE DEAF of the realities of what is going on on the Cg world. Studios are closing left and right, artist are forced to move to some of the most expensive cities IN THE WORLD.
    I mean COME ON Something has to give.
    Ok if you are laid off for an extended amount of time, ans you have a mortgage payments + kids, how the hell are you supposed to keep up your skills?
    When I hear that this will keep HOBBYIST out of the market, for me it is CODE for PEOPLE who are not ins a studio thus CANNOT PAY.
    And can a small studio/ small educational institution keep up with the money these subscriptions require?
    And jusat wait untilthey force you to have your WORK FILES in the cloud and start making IP CLAIMS.
    That is next trust me.
    It seem to me that the only TONe Autodeslk is listening is the one of their investors.
    This message does not reflect the opinions of the US Government, CG Networks or CGTALK.com. The opinions expressed on this posting are on my own volition.

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