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Thread: LW Brush vs. Modo

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    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    LW Brush vs. Modo

    A comparison of LW Brush by 3rd Powers against Modo's mesh sculpt tools. http://www.3rdpowers.com/index.html


  2. #2
    yes native sculpting and painting and baking would be great but what binds those three properties together is mapping without a robust uv system in place they're not really a whole lot, so why buy this if it is not at the very least able to replace 3D Coat let alone Modo, don't get me wrong LW 2015 is a great buy and I'm saying this as some one who owns both 2015 and Modo 801, but the bottom line is LW's achilles heal has always been piss poor uv mapping, yeah I can do all this sculpting and whatever but oh wait I need to sort out my uv's, time to fire up Modo, 3D Goat, some thing anything but not LW

  3. #3
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    I didnīt feel this was a fair comparison, where the differences shows properly..the modo steal of lightwave code ranting was just too much to listen to in this.
    It sort of failed to showcase what you can do with modo sculpting and not in lightwave, and went biased on how much better better lw brush worked.
    There are things you can do in modo sculpting but not in lightwave...that didnīt came across.

    Though lw brush seems nice...I still need a layout tool, working in realtime with symmetry too...no after fix sym, even if that helps out, lw brush is a nice addition indeed.

    Thanks to brent anyway for attempting to showcase the differences..in his way


    Michael

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    Big fan of coffee raw-m's Avatar
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    More rant than demo but I still found it very entertaining!

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    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    I gave you my own rant on you tube but I think what would greatly improve a rant like this would be to be fair about the pipeline context. What I see in this CG industry as a whole is that there are three general contexts to consider when choosing an application or suite to use that best serves you as an individual.

    -) There is a pre-production phase which require tool-sets that are much more about planning the overall scope of a project; fast interaction; making many changes and requires less accuracy in a lot of cases especially for animation concepts/ storyboards and animatics. The concepts will eventually become solid pieces but not for a while.

    -) The production phase is the time when things need to be nailed down conceptually and flexibility is harder to come by. This is highly dependent on the pipeline where there is less room for big general changes and much more room for detailed texture maps, perfect topology/UVs, extremely heavy rigs (if needed), complex shading/texture networks and a clear vision for the final product as the technical complexity becomes more heavy.

    -) The Post production phase somewhat overlaps the production phase in order to make sure production is adhering to the script or gamedoc and Pre-production activities. This is the time to start assembling game levels, animated bits, film clips and adjusting things to complete the project and make the necessary tweaks reflect the original dream/plan/ concept/animatic as much as possible.

    I strongly believe that each application or suite of tools fits into one of these categories better than the other. If someone feels like they need to rant constantly about their own application then I think they might be using the wrong one or the company doesn't understand the software they are developing. OR they should consider using multiple applications/ toolsets for different periods throughout the pipeline.
    Last edited by jasonwestmas; 01-17-2015 at 03:49 PM.
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  6. #6
    I don't currently have any screen capture software installed, so I can't make my own video comparison at the moment, but I'd like to point out an aspect of LW brush that's getting overlooked in these discussions.

    In the Grab tool, there's a "maintain surf detail" checkbox, along with a stiffness slider. When this checkbox is enabled, it's like working with an interactive soft body/cloth simulation, where pushing the surface around affects the surrounding mesh to maintain the shape structure and reduce having the mesh cross over itself. This, as far as I know, is not something that you'll not see in modo, 3d coat, or zbrush.

    And it's REALLY cool.

    The slide tool has a similar option (at least under the hood) called "make wrinkles". when you push on the surface, it makes it wrinkle up just like if you were pushing cloth around.

    One of the things about 3d modeling software in general is that polys are just virtual surfaces that connect points in space. modeling/sculpting is nothing like working with clay or plasticine in the real world. Volume/mass in not conserved, and the rules of physics just don't exist. In some ways, this may be good, but in others, it makes the task much harder (or at least labor intensive) than working in the real world with real materials.

    What I like about LW brush is that it's nudging the process of modeling in this direction. It may not be perfect at it in all cases, but it's the only modeling tool I've seen that even attempts to do what it does.

    Eric

  7. #7
    Adapting Artist jasonwestmas's Avatar
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    oh I definitely noticed those features ericsmith.
    All that is powerful or long standing is first conceived in the imagination; supported by the hope of possibility and then made manifest in our commitment of our current physical reality.

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    Super Member jboudreau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent3d View Post
    A comparison of LW Brush by 3rd Powers against Modo's mesh sculpt tools. http://www.3rdpowers.com/index.html

    OMG THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, FINALLY!!

    It's about time I finally see someone say that Modo is lightwave no matter how hard they try to hide the code etc. As soon as I seen Modo and tried using it, I had no problem at all using it because like you showed here on the video most of the commands, functions etc are the same as lightwaves. This is why I never understood how the modo community can bash lightwave since they are using basically the same architecture. It's so obvious they completely ripped off lightwave and just made some modifications to it. I mean seriously there subpatch system is exactly the same as lightwaves because it is lightwaves subpatch system right down to the TAB hot key.

    Thanks
    Jason
    Last edited by jboudreau; 01-17-2015 at 09:27 PM.
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    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonwestmas View Post
    I gave you my own rant on you tube but I think what would greatly improve a rant like this would be to be fair about the pipeline context. What I see in this CG industry as a whole is that there are three general contexts to consider when choosing an application or suite to use that best serves you as an individual.

    -) There is a pre-production phase which require tool-sets that are much more about planning the overall scope of a project; fast interaction; making many changes and requires less accuracy in a lot of cases especially for animation concepts/ storyboards and animatics. The concepts will eventually become solid pieces but not for a while.

    -) The production phase is the time when things need to be nailed down conceptually and flexibility is harder to come by. This is highly dependent on the pipeline where there is less room for big general changes and much more room for detailed texture maps, perfect topology/UVs, extremely heavy rigs (if needed), complex shading/texture networks and a clear vision for the final product as the technical complexity becomes more heavy.

    -) The Post production phase somewhat overlaps the production phase in order to make sure production is adhering to the script or gamedoc and Pre-production activities. This is the time to start assembling game levels, animated bits, film clips and adjusting things to complete the project and make the necessary tweaks reflect the original dream/plan/ concept/animatic as much as possible.

    I strongly believe that each application or suite of tools fits into one of these categories better than the other. If someone feels like they need to rant constantly about their own application then I think they might be using the wrong one or the company doesn't understand the software they are developing. OR they should consider using multiple applications/ toolsets for different periods throughout the pipeline.
    You got all that from me talking about LW BRush being an exciting asset to Lightwave modeling? My statements about LW Brush in comparison to Modo in know way are about production pipelines, but about the capabilities of Modeler that LW Brush is showing and that Modo has already capitalized on (which is important to note since Modo's modeling base is LW Modeler).

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    Though I've never actually heard the lux dev bash lightwave, the same is not true for the ex lightwavers who completely moved to modo. Not all of them but the same lunatic ex fanboys over here just transferred there and bashed lightwave and keeps bashing lightwave after moving to modo.

    I'd like to see where Brad actually say lightwave sucked because I don't think a guy as smooth talker as he is would do that. He's too slick to make that mistake. Even the first guy to try to appease the userbase after the sale of the Foundry went public.

    One thing in the video, the on screen cut tool creates thickness automatically. Modo doesn't have that. How clean is the geometry?

  11. #11
    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prometheus View Post
    I didnīt feel this was a fair comparison, where the differences shows properly..the modo steal of lightwave code ranting was just too much to listen to in this.
    It sort of failed to showcase what you can do with modo sculpting and not in lightwave, and went biased on how much better better lw brush worked.
    There are things you can do in modo sculpting but not in lightwave...that didnīt came across.

    Though lw brush seems nice...I still need a layout tool, working in realtime with symmetry too...no after fix sym, even if that helps out, lw brush is a nice addition indeed.

    Thanks to brent anyway for attempting to showcase the differences..in his way


    Michael
    You were spotted trolling my Youtube channel. The in-context disagreement of a topic or demonstration is one thing... over 5+ paragraphs of a bizarre and out of context reply that you continued to "re-edit" so that it would remain on top of all other incoming replies is a no-no.

  12. #12
    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gerry_g View Post
    yes native sculpting and painting and baking would be great but what binds those three properties together is mapping without a robust uv system in place they're not really a whole lot, so why buy this if it is not at the very least able to replace 3D Coat let alone Modo, don't get me wrong LW 2015 is a great buy and I'm saying this as some one who owns both 2015 and Modo 801, but the bottom line is LW's achilles heal has always been piss poor uv mapping, yeah I can do all this sculpting and whatever but oh wait I need to sort out my uv's, time to fire up Modo, 3D Goat, some thing anything but not LW
    Totally agree Gerry. I believe 3rd Powers or LW3DG can develop a better designed UV system to accommodate painting, so lets see what happens.

  13. #13
    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jboudreau View Post
    OMG THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, FINALLY!!

    It's about time I finally see someone say that Modo is lightwave no matter how hard they try to hide the code etc. As soon as I seen Modo and tried using it, I had no problem at all using it because like you showed here on the video most of the commands, functions etc are the same as lightwaves. This is why I never understood how the modo community can bash lightwave since they are using basically the same architecture. It's so obvious they completely ripped off lightwave and just made some modifications to it. I mean seriously there subpatch system is exactly the same as lightwaves because it is lightwaves subpatch system right down to the TAB hot key.

    Thanks
    Jason
    Lol..it had to be said Jason. Modo and LW are part of the same family (no other 3D suite can say that), totally surprised at how many people are clueless about the fact that Modo's modeling base is LW Modeler and written by the same developers, which was great back in early versions of Modo when it was much cheaper (it was Modeler on steroids). I love Modo's modeling, used it for years professionally along side Lightwave and taught it to hundreds of students, but Lightwave is due some Modeler love and 3rd Powers LW Brush is dishing it out.

  14. #14
    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raw-m View Post
    More rant than demo but I still found it very entertaining!
    Thanks for bearing with it

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericsmith View Post
    I don't currently have any screen capture software installed, so I can't make my own video comparison at the moment, but I'd like to point out an aspect of LW brush that's getting overlooked in these discussions.

    In the Grab tool, there's a "maintain surf detail" checkbox, along with a stiffness slider. When this checkbox is enabled, it's like working with an interactive soft body/cloth simulation, where pushing the surface around affects the surrounding mesh to maintain the shape structure and reduce having the mesh cross over itself. This, as far as I know, is not something that you'll not see in modo, 3d coat, or zbrush.

    And it's REALLY cool.

    The slide tool has a similar option (at least under the hood) called "make wrinkles". when you push on the surface, it makes it wrinkle up just like if you were pushing cloth around.

    One of the things about 3d modeling software in general is that polys are just virtual surfaces that connect points in space. modeling/sculpting is nothing like working with clay or plasticine in the real world. Volume/mass in not conserved, and the rules of physics just don't exist. In some ways, this may be good, but in others, it makes the task much harder (or at least labor intensive) than working in the real world with real materials.

    What I like about LW brush is that it's nudging the process of modeling in this direction. It may not be perfect at it in all cases, but it's the only modeling tool I've seen that even attempts to do what it does.

    Eric
    You are so right Eric I'm hoping others with more time can do some demos of LW Brush, it has so much potential in the modeling workflow.

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