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Thread: What is going with LightWave ??

  1. #241
    Goes bump in the night RebelHill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptive View Post
    Just an observation...
    Personally, Id say you're probably quite right overall, however... If you look around boards for other softs, you'll see plenty of complaining too... "Why did you kill SI, AD? I hate you"... "Why do you have to keep crashing every 30 seconds, Maya? You suck!"... "Why, Modo must you be so slow at handling complex scenes, ahhhh"... etc.

    Imo, the main thing that drives threads of this nature in LW land is the fact that folks DO like having/using LW but NEED to see it actually advancing and evolving (as we generally expect from most of the tools and innovations we use everyday) so that they won't feel they have to look elsewhere for this functionality. Add to this the fact that NT obviously know this is what users are wanting, having promised such an evolution (initially in the form of core), like, what... 6 YEARS ago now... as well as in the time since.

    I see plenty of folks who're very pleased with the additions and upgrades such as bullet, flocking, unified sampling, etc, etc... but many of these same folk still, it seems, feel that what they're not seeing is this more "fundamental" advancement to really drive LW forward, and after such a long time waiting, I dont think its unfair to expect to see a good deal of frustration expressed about this fact.

    So to this end, I guess the ball really is in NTs court... all they have to do is show SOMETHING that is truly meaningful to this end, and they can squash such sentiment in an instant. But however they choose to do this, users need the reassurance that either it is there to be shown, or that it REALLY is coming in the future.
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  2. #242
    After some weeks I learned one - there is no sense to post threads like this one - about future of lightwave. No info from devs, many speculations etc.
    My main intention was - what we can expect ? After long months of stagnation ( or maybe years - depends on how you look ) I think that most of us who live only with 3D should know. This is very important in business and planning of the future. I shouldn't talk about competition but in business term it is reality - you are going forward or stay where you are.
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  3. #243
    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealist. View Post
    Interesting info about what was happening in the schools. I do think it is a combination of a lot of things to make something like Maya get as much use as it does, not the least of which is money spent on development.

    Marketing helps. Certainly. I am not sure what part you are disagreeing with because I don't remember saying anything that went against what you pointed out I mean directly anyway.

    Is it all only about marketing? No absolutely not. I don't think. But it is part of the package.

    At the heart of it is the tools. And as a long time LightWave user who also now uses Maya and has used XSI fairly extensively and also currently uses Blender I can just say from direct experience that there is no way any tool will find its way into my arsenal on marketing alone. But, accessibility does make a difference. And it has made a huge difference for me. Having access to tools to learn about them, having tutorials available etc.

    Just take Houdini for example. This is an expensive piece of software. And I imagine it would take a long time to learn. So having it available for year is a huge marketing ploy. We are technical people not shopping for Appliances.
    I disagree with your position that I quoted earlier, but the point I'm trying to share is the major importance marketing to schools and students has in all of this (and it's way beyond the design of an app, but how fast students can generate quality work from it and it's relevance to the industries they will be applying to). In a given school year I could teach 200-300 students, each student was required to have an academic license for whatever software was being taught, and those students generally purchased or continued using those softwares after graduation whether they were employed to do so or not. Every year millions of art students graduate into the workforce and some of those students will aid companies in purchasing software or go on to start their own companies, and what software do you think they will recommend or use?
    When I was an undergraduate classes in 3D Art related fields didn't exist yet so all you knew about 3D applications generally came from marketing in magazines, but there was a 3D app being used by the students of the architecture and computer programming departments called 3Ds Max, and those students with 3Ds Max went onto define the game industry. That's the power of marketing and being in the schools, the choice to use 3Ds Max wasn't because Lightwave or Softimage or anyone else wasn't designed well, it was all about being the software that the schools purchased and had on hand.

  4. #244
    Super Member H_Molla's Avatar
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    Well said...

  5. #245
    Super Member H_Molla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanchon View Post
    After some weeks I learned one - there is no sense to post threads like this one - about future of lightwave. No info from devs, many speculations etc.
    My main intention was - what we can expect ? After long months of stagnation ( or maybe years - depends on how you look ) I think that most of us who live only with 3D should know. This is very important in business and planning of the future. I shouldn't talk about competition but in business term it is reality - you are going forward or stay where you are.
    We really need to know...

  6. #246
    Lighthearted Kaptive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RebelHill View Post
    Personally, Id say you're probably quite right overall, however... If you look around boards for other softs, you'll see plenty of complaining too... "Why did you kill SI, AD? I hate you"... "Why do you have to keep crashing every 30 seconds, Maya? You suck!"... "Why, Modo must you be so slow at handling complex scenes, ahhhh"... etc.

    Imo, the main thing that drives threads of this nature in LW land is the fact that folks DO like having/using LW but NEED to see it actually advancing and evolving (as we generally expect from most of the tools and innovations we use everyday) so that they won't feel they have to look elsewhere for this functionality. Add to this the fact that NT obviously know this is what users are wanting, having promised such an evolution (initially in the form of core), like, what... 6 YEARS ago now... as well as in the time since.

    I see plenty of folks who're very pleased with the additions and upgrades such as bullet, flocking, unified sampling, etc, etc... but many of these same folk still, it seems, feel that what they're not seeing is this more "fundamental" advancement to really drive LW forward, and after such a long time waiting, I dont think its unfair to expect to see a good deal of frustration expressed about this fact.

    So to this end, I guess the ball really is in NTs court... all they have to do is show SOMETHING that is truly meaningful to this end, and they can squash such sentiment in an instant. But however they choose to do this, users need the reassurance that either it is there to be shown, or that it REALLY is coming in the future.
    All very good points, and yes I think you're right, it is very much in Newteks court now. I can imagine that the devs feel a pressure and desire to get fully back in the race pack too, so fingers crossed.

    I guess with Core, Newtek took an ambitious leap and stumbled. But to their credit they got back up and found a way through. It gives me faith in their fighting spirit and ability to make hard choices. I'm sure it'll all work out.

  7. #247
    Lighthearted Kaptive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanchon View Post
    After some weeks I learned one - there is no sense to post threads like this one - about future of lightwave. No info from devs, many speculations etc.
    My main intention was - what we can expect ? After long months of stagnation ( or maybe years - depends on how you look ) I think that most of us who live only with 3D should know. This is very important in business and planning of the future. I shouldn't talk about competition but in business term it is reality - you are going forward or stay where you are.
    Just want to say that I wasn't having a dig at you It was more of a general observation having read so many threads that seem to end up in circles. Not your fault. I think Rebel did a good job explaining what I was missing from the puzzle.

    Anyways, all good, and I understand your point of view. Everyones circumstances and needs are a little different.

  8. #248
    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptive View Post
    Just an observation...

    Some of the dominating threads that roll around in this forum draw some seemingly negative views of Lightwave at times. These dominating discussions might appear as alarm bells to anyone new to Lightwave or considering it. All they need to do is read a few pages and they'll go away thinking they have chosen the wrong path/made a bad choice... or even worse, look elsewhere (when actually Lightwave might suit them perfectly).

    Where I get frustrated... and why I think community members need to be more considerate of Newtek when posting publicly on their opinions regarding software direction and what is "wrong" with Lightwave...

    Lightwave serves a large (not massive) group of 3d artists, that I believe are generally silent, happy and making great work and a decent living. Its' tools, price and usability make it ideal for many. Yes there are the odd problems here and there on occasion, and it works in its' own unique way that isn't to everyone's suiting. But the bottom line is that it is a pretty complete package for a very broad range of work, without having to use any other 3d software outside of what is free, such as blender and sculptris.

    But some of you folks seem to get hung up on details that actually don't really bother a lot of us. When I hear some of the comments, I wonder why you are using Lightwave at all if your demands are much higher? Why are you complaining about the future of Lightwave if you are feeling restricted doing whatever line of 3d work you do? Is it not easier to progress into software that is matching your output? Just curious on that one.

    If Lightwave is your preferred package, despite your issues with it, then right now is the time to stop churning over the same thing and start putting the same effort into positively promoting it instead... because getting more people to go the Lightwave route is what will give Newtek the resources to give us what we want. If you have a strong idea on how Lightwave can be improved, then write a concise email to the devs and explain any good ideas you have to solve a problem. It doesn't need to be dragged out on here does it?
    The thing is, if the devs don't know what you lot want from it by now, then they must be blind and deaf. Any time spent discussing it is probably just wasted breath for a year or two.

    I think what I'm trying to say, is that we are all ambassadors of Lightwave and promoting it is in everyone's interest. Newtek is the little guy, and fighting off Autodesk is hard enough as it is. They have come so far in presentation and marketing, and I bet they'd love to promote the forum more, but it seems to be more about these kinds of conversations than work sharing and positive exchanges. Again, I'm probably pointing at threads like this one, that roll on and on, staying on the front page as click bait. They bury everything else in the feed on the right. Just saying.


    Anyway, I'm not saying that you're all ar*eholes lol.... far from, in fact the community is awesome when it comes to helping people... first class... I just think we need to look at the bigger picture, and the best ways in which we can get improvements in Lightwave and that is more people using it, which in turn means more investment in development. Thus a unified app if that is a good idea... a new hair system, updated modeler... etc etc.

    Rant over... and that was a proper rant! Saranine just got me thinking! Hope I didn't repeat myself too much or sound like a total (insert your favorite derogatory word).

    p.s. I always regret posting things like this, but hey.

    p.p.s. If you think i'm just talking out of my bottom, then I welcome my views to be challenged and decimated if I'm wrong. Really this post is basically about the tone of the forum, and the feeling I get as a casual visitor (but a long time LW user).

    p.p.p.s. That is all I have to say about that. Chocolate?
    Totally agree. "...today we face the monsters at our door...today we are cancelling the apocalypse!" Over the top?...yes, but get inspired, remember why you chose to do 3D in the first place, join the rebellion.

  9. #249
    Member toeknee's Avatar
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    You know I fought with Newtek about the education issue for a while. I taught 3D in China between 2006 and 2009 and when I can back to the States. I went back to work for the reseller I worked for before hand. The point is that it was my job to sell LW3D. I sold about 250 copy's into school at that time and the two biggest reasons I had a hard time selling it was because, it used a dongle and second because there was no certification program. The dongle was the biggest issue but the latter was also extremely important.
    At the time when I first came back from China I was trying to work with Newtek just to get out a quick certification program for character animation. The idea I was pitching was to use IKBoost as the main tool and focus of teaching the principles of animation. Things like blocking weight timing yada yada yada. I wanted to use IKBoost because it was a simple tool to get people started by learning a pose to pose animation style. I was blown off pretty quickly because they had someone internally who was working on a training certification process. Well that was five years ago and still no certification program. What I was offering would have been ready to go in two months.

    oh well, at least they got ride of the dongle. Considering the work Ryan Roye has done with IKBoost I bet he could do what I was talking about in two week. It has been great to see him pickup where Spline God left off. Way to carry the torch.
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  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by brent3d View Post
    I disagree with your position that I quoted earlier, but the point I'm trying to share is the major importance marketing to schools and students has in all of this (and it's way beyond the design of an app, but how fast students can generate quality work from it and it's relevance to the industries they will be applying to). In a given school year I could teach 200-300 students, each student was required to have an academic license for whatever software was being taught, and those students generally purchased or continued using those softwares after graduation whether they were employed to do so or not. Every year millions of art students graduate into the workforce and some of those students will aid companies in purchasing software or go on to start their own companies, and what software do you think they will recommend or use?
    When I was an undergraduate classes in 3D Art related fields didn't exist yet so all you knew about 3D applications generally came from marketing in magazines, but there was a 3D app being used by the students of the architecture and computer programming departments called 3Ds Max, and those students with 3Ds Max went onto define the game industry. That's the power of marketing and being in the schools, the choice to use 3Ds Max wasn't because Lightwave or Softimage or anyone else wasn't designed well, it was all about being the software that the schools purchased and had on hand.
    Yeah in general I think I can see what you are saying and your first hand experience is definitely good info to have.

    Another factor that you draw attention to is that this industry is new. And that means that is was not initially an academically-driven workforce in the traditional sense. I was around when a very good friend was making six figures from LightWave alone, based on nothing more than a reel and working his way up on talent and experience. A lot of people got into 3D at that time, self taught, and self made.

    And the industry then grew, driven mainly by what software was working. It was not at all driven by what was being taught in school because then, it wasn't yet at least nearly as widely as now. That did not come til much later. And then it made sense to teach the software that the studios were using, and then it made sense for a company like Autodesk to make the investment in the educational sector and this is where I think your story fits in. So there was a history already. And yes absolutely the school system eventually became what it is today. And yeah it feeds itself.

    But at the same time, if a new software comes along and starts to have an impact on the market then it will reflect itself in what is offered in training.

    Just this year in fact DT begain offering Blender training and they have been working for several months now to develop a LightWave offering. So LightWave lately is actually back on the rise over the last few years. And it will continue to rise as the tool set increases and the user base expands and then eventually it can make sense for it to enter back into the educational sector in more ways than it has now.

    By the way my friend who was making money off of LightWave in the 90s jumped to Maya in 2000. It was a sign of things to come. Honestly at the time I was a little shocked. But his reasoning was fairly solid and certainly he saw himself furthering his career by this move. So it says a lot. About 13 years later I did the same... I am a little slow... lol.

  11. #251

    but it's easy to be wise later on though, i was "this" close to jumping to xSI...

    look where xSI is now... ...
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  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptive View Post
    Just an observation...

    Some of the dominating threads that roll around in this forum draw some seemingly negative views of Lightwave at times. These dominating discussions might appear as alarm bells to anyone new to Lightwave or considering it. All they need to do is read a few pages and they'll go away thinking they have chosen the wrong path/made a bad choice... or even worse, look elsewhere (when actually Lightwave might suit them perfectly).

    Where I get frustrated... and why I think community members need to be more considerate of Newtek when posting publicly on their opinions regarding software direction and what is "wrong" with Lightwave...

    Lightwave serves a large (not massive) group of 3d artists, that I believe are generally silent, happy and making great work and a decent living. Its' tools, price and usability make it ideal for many. Yes there are the odd problems here and there on occasion, and it works in its' own unique way that isn't to everyone's suiting. But the bottom line is that it is a pretty complete package for a very broad range of work, without having to use any other 3d software outside of what is free, such as blender and sculptris.

    But some of you folks seem to get hung up on details that actually don't really bother a lot of us. When I hear some of the comments, I wonder why you are using Lightwave at all if your demands are much higher? Why are you complaining about the future of Lightwave if you are feeling restricted doing whatever line of 3d work you do? Is it not easier to progress into software that is matching your output? Just curious on that one.

    If Lightwave is your preferred package, despite your issues with it, then right now is the time to stop churning over the same thing and start putting the same effort into positively promoting it instead... because getting more people to go the Lightwave route is what will give Newtek the resources to give us what we want. If you have a strong idea on how Lightwave can be improved, then write a concise email to the devs and explain any good ideas you have to solve a problem. It doesn't need to be dragged out on here does it?
    The thing is, if the devs don't know what you lot want from it by now, then they must be blind and deaf. Any time spent discussing it is probably just wasted breath for a year or two.

    I think what I'm trying to say, is that we are all ambassadors of Lightwave and promoting it is in everyone's interest. Newtek is the little guy, and fighting off Autodesk is hard enough as it is. They have come so far in presentation and marketing, and I bet they'd love to promote the forum more, but it seems to be more about these kinds of conversations than work sharing and positive exchanges. Again, I'm probably pointing at threads like this one, that roll on and on, staying on the front page as click bait. They bury everything else in the feed on the right. Just saying.


    Anyway, I'm not saying that you're all ar*eholes lol.... far from, in fact the community is awesome when it comes to helping people... first class... I just think we need to look at the bigger picture, and the best ways in which we can get improvements in Lightwave and that is more people using it, which in turn means more investment in development. Thus a unified app if that is a good idea... a new hair system, updated modeler... etc etc.

    Rant over... and that was a proper rant! Saranine just got me thinking! Hope I didn't repeat myself too much or sound like a total (insert your favorite derogatory word).

    p.s. I always regret posting things like this, but hey.

    p.p.s. If you think i'm just talking out of my bottom, then I welcome my views to be challenged and decimated if I'm wrong. Really this post is basically about the tone of the forum, and the feeling I get as a casual visitor (but a long time LW user).

    p.p.p.s. That is all I have to say about that. Chocolate?
    I totally agree,

    Thanks sir, you wrote every single thing that i had in my mind while reading this threads but had not courage to say bec i know my place and level.

    Maybe you were also targeting my post.

  13. #253
    ..since 4.0 and beyond brent3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealist. View Post
    Yeah in general I think I can see what you are saying and your first hand experience is definitely good info to have.

    Another factor that you draw attention to is that this industry is new. And that means that is was not initially an academically-driven workforce in the traditional sense. I was around when a very good friend was making six figures from LightWave alone, based on nothing more than a reel and working his way up on talent and experience. A lot of people got into 3D at that time, self taught, and self made.

    And the industry then grew, driven mainly by what software was working. It was not at all driven by what was being taught in school because then, it wasn't yet at least nearly as widely as now. That did not come til much later. And then it made sense to teach the software that the studios were using, and then it made sense for a company like Autodesk to make the investment in the educational sector and this is where I think your story fits in. So there was a history already. And yes absolutely the school system eventually became what it is today. And yeah it feeds itself.

    But at the same time, if a new software comes along and starts to have an impact on the market then it will reflect itself in what is offered in training.

    Just this year in fact DT begain offering Blender training and they have been working for several months now to develop a LightWave offering. So LightWave lately is actually back on the rise over the last few years. And it will continue to rise as the tool set increases and the user base expands and then eventually it can make sense for it to enter back into the educational sector in more ways than it has now.

    By the way my friend who was making money off of LightWave in the 90s jumped to Maya in 2000. It was a sign of things to come. Honestly at the time I was a little shocked. But his reasoning was fairly solid and certainly he saw himself furthering his career by this move. So it says a lot. About 13 years later I did the same... I am a little slow... lol.
    I understand completely... I myself started off with Max R3 and Lightwave 4.0 and back then just knowing a 3D app was a big deal, crazy times. But now with Autodesk owning 3 out of the 4 original 3D suites and phasing 2 of those 3 out, it leaves very little in the way of choice for artist. Softwares have their logic of how to interact with them and not every process works with everyone, so for students who can't wrap their heads around Maya's UI and logic may find 3D inaccessible to them which was the case in regards to training art students in Maya vs 3Ds max (which has it's own artist friendly issues). But at least they could choose or experiment with another apps approach. Once Lightwave and Modo were brought into my labs then we had students who weren't even in the art department wanting to take classes. Funny, in a world where the use of 3D software is booming the choices for artist, schools, and businesses are dwindling and that's not because of software design or evolved processes but by corporate decision making.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    but it's easy to be wise later on though, i was "this" close to jumping to xSI...

    look where xSI is now... ...
    I know....Sad.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by erikals View Post
    but it's easy to be wise later on though, i was "this" close to jumping to xSI...

    look where xSI is now... ...
    I would not view having Softimage as an unwise move. I think it would have been a brilliant move. I don't regret it at all. I think as an artist it has enriched my understanding of the process. And I am thankful to have it still around as a tool in my arsenal.

    That said, with the indie version of Houdini... well. That is another nail in the coffin for me. The final nail might be the development team now on Maya bringing much needed love. To me it is all good. I don't see it as all that tragic. And I got a copy "free" of Max out of the deal to. Recently got some work that requires 3D Max... so.. well. That's me. That is my experience.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by brent3d View Post
    I understand completely... I myself started off with Max R3 and Lightwave 4.0 and back then just knowing a 3D app was a big deal, crazy times. But now with Autodesk owning 3 out of the 4 original 3D suites and phasing 2 of those 3 out, it leaves very little in the way of choice for artist. Softwares have their logic of how to interact with them and not every process works with everyone, so for students who can't wrap their heads around Maya's UI and logic may find 3D inaccessible to them which was the case in regards to training art students in Maya vs 3Ds max (which has it's own artist friendly issues). But at least they could choose or experiment with another apps approach. Once Lightwave and Modo were brought into my labs then we had students who weren't even in the art department wanting to take classes. Funny, in a world where the use of 3D software is booming the choices for artist, schools, and businesses are dwindling and that's not because of software design or evolved processes but by corporate decision making.
    Interesting, well the good thing is that times are changing and nothing stays the same. So even as Maya gets more love - which I am enjoying - so is LightWave and Modo. And Blender is on the rise. So this will start to have a turn in artist's favor I think. I think more choices will come back as software companies start to compete for the "indie" market which seems to be a buzz word these days.

    As it is now LightWave and Modo are really not low priced. Actually they are mid priced from a student or freelance position, what with the indie version of Houdni, Maya Lite and so on. I think this is the direction things will be moving. I think it is going to move away from the big purchase in order to make this a business for the little guy.

    Well one can hope.... ha ha ha

    But I think there are good things for LightWave's future for sure.

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