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Thread: Gearing up for LW12?

  1. #226
    Defender of Mankind Emmanuel's Avatar
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    Hey, Lewis, thanks fir the photos, looks nice, clean usable. Way to go, NT
    Bye,
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  2. #227
    Registered User octopus2000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    Really ? So UI was the problem ?

    Well i somehow don't remember it that way as you describe so i just made fresh screengrabs and still thinking what are you remembering good after-all ?

    - It has Quad view just like modeler (plus fact you can adjust any window size or add more than 4 windows if you wish or display nodes or schematic or web browser in any window)
    - It has TOP Row Tabs same as LWM
    - It has Side panel buttons - same as LWM (plus fact you can choose to show Text only, buttons only, shortcuts and all three mixed together),
    - It has Stats panel
    - it has same window options for wire, shade, shade+wire and TOP/Front/Back, Persp.... windows
    - it has same top right corner window navigation keys
    - it has HUDisplay (for polys/points/selections... LWM lacks)
    - It has attributes panel (numeric in modeler),
    - It has layers panel (with more options than what modeler one has).
    - It has Action center modes on bottom (all 4 here as icons but you can have them as text also - as a matter of fact you can make/change any button icon as you like)
    - It has snapping buttons (point, poly, edge (modeler lacks that very much and would need snapping)
    - It has workplanes (modeler needs it desperately)
    - It has gizmos for all tools but you can hide them and work free flow (like Beveling/extruding with mouse movements like in modeler if for some reason you wish not use gizmos )
    - It has dock-able GUI panels
    - It has switchable GUI themes (i included greyish/blue LWVX theme Matt made back then which i like the most but there was XSI theme, LW 5.6 theme, many more themes...)
    - It has Context sensitive shortcut keys and keys working withing the tools itself and not just for starting the tools
    - It has Drag&drop for assigning materials (or just clicking/picking polys like in LWM)
    - It has same LWM Units system/grid
    - It can work same as LWM when nothing selected = all selected and on top of that it's and USER option so it's best for LWavers and other possible newcomers who can switch it off if they are used to other mode in their software)
    - It has completely user adjustable navigation and selections so it's not hardcoded like LWM (but can be set to work exactly the same or even better since you can click to empty space to drop selection like in modo/Maya/Max or you can use LW one to not loose selection untill you shortcut or hit on GUI...).
    - ............... and many many more LW like features/MO

    So i do wonder are you really tested it then or you just are imagined things or heard it was like that somwhere but not really tried to test properly ?
    Then what do you think was the GUI problem ? I don't think so, it was somethign completely different than GUI 'coz GUI was changed/shaped as users wanted/requested in few releases and at this stage it was mimicking 95% of LWM GUI and had many more features Layout/LWM lacks to this very own day 4+ years later.

    cheers
    WOW! lightwave CORE UI looks awesome. Why the hell did newtek drop this? it looked fine.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    Really ? So UI was the problem ?

    Well i somehow don't remember it that way as you describe so i just made fresh screengrabs and still thinking what are you remembering good after-all ?

    - It has Quad view just like modeler (plus fact you can adjust any window size or add more than 4 windows if you wish or display nodes or schematic or web browser in any window)
    - It has TOP Row Tabs same as LWM
    - It has Side panel buttons - same as LWM (plus fact you can choose to show Text only, buttons only, shortcuts and all three mixed together),
    - It has Stats panel
    - it has same window options for wire, shade, shade+wire and TOP/Front/Back, Persp.... windows
    - it has same top right corner window navigation keys
    - it has HUDisplay (for polys/points/selections... LWM lacks)
    - It has attributes panel (numeric in modeler),
    - It has layers panel (with more options than what modeler one has).
    - It has Action center modes on bottom (all 4 here as icons but you can have them as text also - as a matter of fact you can make/change any button icon as you like)
    - It has snapping buttons (point, poly, edge (modeler lacks that very much and would need snapping)
    - It has workplanes (modeler needs it desperately)
    - It has gizmos for all tools but you can hide them and work free flow (like Beveling/extruding with mouse movements like in modeler if for some reason you wish not use gizmos )
    - It has dock-able GUI panels
    - It has switchable GUI themes (i included greyish/blue LWVX theme Matt made back then which i like the most but there was XSI theme, LW 5.6 theme, many more themes...)
    - It has Context sensitive shortcut keys and keys working withing the tools itself and not just for starting the tools
    - It has Drag&drop for assigning materials (or just clicking/picking polys like in LWM)
    - It has same LWM Units system/grid
    - It can work same as LWM when nothing selected = all selected and on top of that it's and USER option so it's best for LWavers and other possible newcomers who can switch it off if they are used to other mode in their software)
    - It has completely user adjustable navigation and selections so it's not hardcoded like LWM (but can be set to work exactly the same or even better since you can click to empty space to drop selection like in modo/Maya/Max or you can use LW one to not loose selection untill you shortcut or hit on GUI...).
    - ............... and many many more LW like features/MO

    So i do wonder are you really tested it then or you just are imagined things or heard it was like that somwhere but not really tried to test properly ?
    Then what do you think was the GUI problem ? I don't think so, it was somethign completely different than GUI 'coz GUI was changed/shaped as users wanted/requested in few releases and at this stage it was mimicking 95% of LWM GUI and had many more features Layout/LWM lacks to this very own day 4+ years later.

    cheers
    Spot on!
    Had been wondering why some old hats kept saying it wasn't "lightwavy enough"(and I heard that quiet a lot)
    If it was as flexible as you listed above then EOL(ing) it was a terrible decision.
    Last edited by Hail; 08-12-2014 at 12:11 PM.

  4. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Hail View Post
    Spot on!
    Had been wondering why some old hats kept saying it wasn't "lightwavy enough"(and I heard that quiet a lot)
    If was as flexible as you listed above then EOL(ing) it was a terrible decision.
    Sure, keyboards are fully customizable for selections, navigation (and yes you can use scroll button for zoom ) and many many more, and ahh it has sticky keys implementation in shortcuts.
    check the keyboards shortcut screengrab

    So like i said GUI was certainly NOT reasons why NT shut it down. So if some old-timers (I'm odltimer too ) say that was the reason then they just aren't know facts and they obviously didn't tried/gave it chance or tested it properly (I've spent year of thorough testing it so i know it pretty well).

    I'm not entering debate about real reasons why they canceled it or was it right or wrong decision (it was their decisiion and i voiced my opinion about that 3 years ago at that loooong/epic thread but and i find-out first hand many more info about that since then so i know enough) but pretty sure GUI wa snot reason 'coz ditching it 'coz of GUI whcih is much more felxible and customizable than LW is to this very own date would be too silly . There was much more deep/important issues which lead to cancellation of it.

    Cheers
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  5. #230
    RETROGRADER prometheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by octopus2000 View Post
    WOW! lightwave CORE UI looks awesome. Why the hell did newtek drop this? it looked fine.
    Itīs simple...I didnīt like it or approve of it (talk about ego hybris)

    In fact I think to many lightwave users thought it was just to different, me included, the flexibility of it might have been great, and it even had a sculpt tool in there which we still donīt have in either modeler or layout to this day and it is UI out of topic.

    but it just went to different in the look of it all, to unfamiliar and it becomes not very friendly to work with as you were used to, now they could have followed that track on the UI, but still remaining somewhat true to the old UI, and we can still have that I think, just start with flexible windows with rezising, docking and expanding and collapsing panels, the rest will be merely cosmetics on how you would want it to look.
    UI of core had some poorly designed icons, and to roundish buttons all over the place, just to make an impression of being something else.

  6. #231
    Electron wrangler jwiede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lightscape View Post
    Its the same thinking from other Cinema4d users wanting a core rewrite after the new release of R15 people are saying nice features but have you rewritten the architecture..
    Actually, MAXON just completed a huge major rewrite as of R14/R15. The first big roll-out was R12, the next biggie was at R14, and with the new renderer in R15 it was pretty much complete. It's quite obvious if you look at the SDK changes between 11.5->12 and 13->14, in particular. Among other big changes, they moved to an all-double-precision-based infrastructure.
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  7. #232
    Super Member Snosrap's Avatar
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    Core was crucified because the common keyboard shortcuts went from T, Y, H to W, E, R for Move, Rotate and Scale. I've never heard so many b*tch about how LW was going all Maya because of these three simple keyboard shortcuts.

  8. #233
    Axes grinder- Dongle #99
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    foreshadowing in 11.n

    ::eyeroll:: I was there, I was a beta tester, and that f*#r crashed every 30 seconds.

    Screen grabs do not a UI make: it wasn't JUST the "maya-very-lite" aspect, it was navigation it was interaction it was EVERYTHING. The nouns of a screen grab and a checklist of features do not convey what the verbs of trying to USE that piece of junk was like.

    Need I remind people that The Powers That Be killed CORE, not the nay-sayers, so obviously management also thought something was wrong.

    That's one very attractive dead horse. We love to whale on it.
    ++++++++++++++++

    The name of this thread is "Gearing up for LW12?" -- What I'm surprised to see is the LACK of enthusiasm for the features that were good in CORE that appeared in 11.n, like the selection highlighting in the "Axis-" tools. Nobody seems to have mentioned that the various goodies showcased by the newer tools in 11.n imply changes in the infrastructure that ALLOW those goodies to happen.

    The same plumbing that is allowing pre-selection* highlighting and gizmos can be used in more tools as it gets more and more stable. THAT should have users jumping up and down and clapping their hands like 3 year olds.


    *is it fair to call that 'pre-selection'?
    Last edited by jeric_synergy; 08-12-2014 at 09:34 AM.
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  9. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by jeric_synergy View Post
    ..........That's one very attractive dead horse. We love to whale on it........
    So you are pissed on at somethign you brought on and mentioned in this topic?

    BTW also it's not pre-selecting since it's not selecting anything (IN LWM) 'coz we need to select polys to use them with new tools, it pre-higlights only for snaping/moving pivot for gizmos (liek transalte tool) but you can't add to selection while you are "IN" the tool so it's nowhere near/same as you could do in CORE or other packages which have true pre-higlighting (and adding to selection while in the mode) for points/polys/edges/items (which we don't have in LWM due split app nature and Layout has Items only but no ability to select polys so it's tricky problem in current LW)

    Also Topic name is kinda pointles since there is no "gearing up" for LW12 this Siggraph (or this year probably) anyway .
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  10. #235
    Member devin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeric_synergy View Post
    The name of this thread is "Gearing up for LW12?" -- What I'm surprised to see is the LACK of enthusiasm for the features that were good in CORE that appeared in 11.n, like the selection highlighting in the "Axis-" tools. Nobody seems to have mentioned that the various goodies showcased by the newer tools in 11.n imply changes in the infrastructure that ALLOW those goodies to happen.

    The same plumbing that is allowing pre-selection* highlighting and gizmos can be used in more tools as it gets more and more stable. THAT should have users jumping up and down and clapping their hands like 3 year olds.
    I appreciate the under-the-hood changes and new tools but some still seem a bit poorly integrated. The Transform tool works erratically at best and locks up or hangs at various zoom levels. Some of the other modeling tools just aren't as intuitive as I've come to expect from LW. I was super excited for the inclusion of instancing but I also find controlling it all from within the panel very non-intuitive and confusing. Instances also don't seem to play well with dissolve. Oddly, this is somehow affected by the coordinate system that's selected. Bugs are a given with any software but these are pretty big ones that should be quickly addressed.

    That being said, all of the additional tools and point releases are great and appreciated but I'm ready to see modern architecture and workflows incorporated. It's often necessary for us to think outside the box for the task at hand but I need some of the basic features to both work and work well with other features as well. Basic workflows should no longer be about patching and hacking solutions together constantly.

    Not trying to bash LW or take away from what it's accomplished. Both my company and myself are at a crossroads. We need to feel reassured that there is still a bright future for LW or we have to make some tough decisions.
    Last edited by devin; 08-12-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  11. #236
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    Well, it appears many of the geasers here love the crippled and ancient nature of lw and I'm not sure why.
    Core had the potential to offer what crippled lw has now and more.
    One thing that irks me though is the double standards these same old hats who got Core killed employ. They are the same gray heads I find around on these boards whining about how non classy and archaic lw feels.
    WTF did u expect? The horse has been long old and ailing, that was why NT opted to put it down and pursue Core but you said no!
    So live with it but don't expect it to perform like the others without radical change/redesign.
    Last edited by Hail; 08-12-2014 at 10:57 AM.

  12. #237
    Registered User Wickedpup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeric_synergy View Post
    ::eyeroll:: I was there, I was a beta tester, and that f*#r crashed every 30 seconds.

    Screen grabs do not a UI make: it wasn't JUST the "maya-very-lite" aspect, it was navigation it was interaction it was EVERYTHING. The nouns of a screen grab and a checklist of features do not convey what the verbs of trying to USE that piece of junk was like.

    Need I remind people that The Powers That Be killed CORE, not the nay-sayers, so obviously management also thought something was wrong.

    The name of this thread is "Gearing up for LW12?" -- What I'm surprised to see is the LACK of enthusiasm for the features that were good in CORE that appeared in 11.n, like the selection highlighting in the "Axis-" tools. Nobody seems to have mentioned that the various goodies showcased by the newer tools in 11.n imply changes in the infrastructure that ALLOW those goodies to happen.

    The same plumbing that is allowing pre-selection* highlighting and gizmos can be used in more tools as it gets more and more stable. THAT should have users jumping up and down and clapping their hands like 3 year olds.
    And MANAGEMENT have never been wrong? Or is it just when their opininion coinsides with yours? IMO it was a money decision, nothing else.....

    As far as infra-structure changes goes I seem to recall David Ikeda (in his deleted posts) commenting about how some of the new modelling tools had been implemented and how it had turned out to be a non-viable course. But that might be my memory playing tricks on me....
    Last edited by Wickedpup; 08-12-2014 at 10:56 AM.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by octopus2000 View Post
    WOW! lightwave CORE UI looks awesome. Why the hell did newtek drop this? it looked fine.
    Because many of the geasers here didn't want to learn new software either because their brains were too old or they were simply feeling too lazy to pick up books again.

  14. #239
    Axes grinder- Dongle #99
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    If you're going to malign people like Splinegod, at least spell it correctly: "geezers".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis View Post
    So you are pissed on at somethign you brought on and mentioned in this topic?
    Bokad asked me how I would've approached it. I told him.
    Last edited by jeric_synergy; 08-12-2014 at 11:02 AM.
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  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snosrap View Post
    Core was crucified because the common keyboard shortcuts went from T, Y, H to W, E, R for Move, Rotate and Scale. I've never heard so many b*tch about how LW was going all Maya because of these three simple keyboard shortcuts.
    I was one of those people.

    And it's been a while but as I remember it, the program when opened it for the first time wasn't designed for LW users.
    It was a single interface but you could split into quads if you wanted to.
    It had icons you could hide if you wanted to.
    It had Maya style navigation and shortcuts you could change if you wanted to.

    Here's my point. If your BETA group, (let's be honest ALPHA group) is to a large extent made up of people use LW, why are you making the software completely foreign by default? And if you are interested in getting user feedback why wouldn't you listen when they said "Hey, I don't like this. Can we at least make these things LW by default and have Maya settings as a preset?"

    They didn't listen, or at least they gave no feedback signifying that they were taking this to heart. Which in turn creates MORE ire in the group with the complaints not being resolved.

    Also, I saw the video's of people doing impressive things with CORE. Honestly, Lewis did the very best work of anyone, hands down.

    However my experience never got past;

    Make a box. Move. Crash
    Make a box. Move. Crash
    Make a box. Crash. &#$%@!

    And again I point out two years behind schedule and no market plan that really made any sense.
    Over budget.
    Past original deadline.
    No product that they deemed acceptable to present at a trade show as a concept, much less bring to market. It wasn't stable enough. It would have been an embarrassment. (And CORE members were very supportive about them NOT showing a buggy product at Trade shows during those years. Patient to a fault.)
    And during this time, they weren't improving on Modeler or Layout, meaning there was a dropoff in upgrade sales income and marketing was stagnant in what they could present to a market that had already seen LW.

    So they were at least a year into dwindling sales and the department most likely in a pressed situation financially.


    Python, Instancing, Bullet, all could have been great options for CORE 2.0. But the initial release should have concentrated on stability, and that history stack. Every time they showed those things I was like, "That's great, but how does this relate to modeling?" And users continued to be impressed while the clock ticked away and still no marketable product was released.

    I do not think you can blame the user base for the fail of CORE.

    It was a very hopeful time that ended in frustration and disappointment for all involved. And I am honestly sick to death of hearing about it.

    This is the last time I will ever talk about it again. And it would make me very happy if everyone else here could let it go as well.

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